Am Mittwoch, den 14.12.2011, 23:24 +0100 schrieb Christoph Wickert:
I REALLY hope to meet ALL FAmSCo members next Wednesday, MONTH DAYth (two weeks from now) at 22:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting!
Sorry, I was so pissed that I overlooked the copy&paste errors.
Should read:
I REALLY hope to meet ALL FAmSCo members next Wednesday, December 21st at 22:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting!
I am open to suggestions for a better time slot, but we'll deal with this on famsco list.
Regards, Christoph
With FAmSCo members spread all over the globe, you're going to have a problem with the schedule, just like the last FAmSCo did.
Good luck with that, though.
Larry Cafiero
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Christoph Wickert cwickert@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Am Mittwoch, den 14.12.2011, 23:24 +0100 schrieb Christoph Wickert:
I REALLY hope to meet ALL FAmSCo members next Wednesday, MONTH DAYth (two weeks from now) at 22:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting!
Sorry, I was so pissed that I overlooked the copy&paste errors.
Should read:
I REALLY hope to meet ALL FAmSCo members next Wednesday, December 21st at 22:00 UTC in #fedora-meeting!
I am open to suggestions for a better time slot, but we'll deal with this on famsco list.
Regards, Christoph
-- ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Larry Cafiero larry.cafiero@gmail.com wrote:
With FAmSCo members spread all over the globe, you're going to have a problem with the schedule, just like the last FAmSCo did.
FAmSCo somehow managed this for years before the last one so perhaps if those currently serving can't figure it out they can ask someone from the earlier FAmSCos how the heck they got along. :)
John
Well, never let the voice of experience get in the way of a flippant remark. :-)
Let's take a look at past FAmSCo and their make-up in regard to which time zones they're in, shall we (and we'll count North America and South America together since they share time zones)?
Current: 2 Europe, 2 Asia/Australia, 3 North America/South America Last: 1 Europe, 3 Asia/Australia, 3 North America/South America Dec. 2009-Dec. 2010: 2 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 5 North America/South America Jan. 2009-Dec. 2009: 3 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 4 North America/South America Jan. 2008-Dec. 2008: 4 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 3 North America/South America Oct 2006-Dec. 2007: 2 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 5 North America/South America As for the original FAmSCo that came before this one, six of the nine members were in North America.
Source: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAmSCo_history
So I think past FAmSCos "managed this for years before the last one" because they were within a reasonable window of time zones. This is why it's more problematic now and, hopefully, this group can achieve a schedule where someone (and it's usually the North American/South American contingent) doesn't have to get up an ungodly early hour.
Larry Cafiero
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 3:10 PM, inode0 inode0@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Larry Cafiero larry.cafiero@gmail.com wrote:
With FAmSCo members spread all over the globe, you're going to have a problem with the schedule, just like the last FAmSCo did.
FAmSCo somehow managed this for years before the last one so perhaps if those currently serving can't figure it out they can ask someone from the earlier FAmSCos how the heck they got along. :)
John
ambassadors mailing list ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/ambassadors
Let's take a look at past FAmSCo and their make-up in regard to which time zones they're in, shall we (and we'll count North America and South America together since they share time zones)?
Dec. 2009-Dec. 2010: 2 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 5 North America/South America Jan. 2009-Dec. 2009: 3 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 4 North America/South America
I was in India back then, so that would be 2/1/4 and 3/1/3 respectively.
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:07 PM, susmit shannigrahi thinklinux.ssh@gmail.com wrote:
Let's take a look at past FAmSCo and their make-up in regard to which time zones they're in, shall we (and we'll count North America and South America together since they share time zones)?
Dec. 2009-Dec. 2010: 2 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 5 North America/South America Jan. 2009-Dec. 2009: 3 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 4 North America/South America
I was in India back then, so that would be 2/1/4 and 3/1/3 respectively.
And Spevack was in EMEA - but these details don't really matter. The introduction of APAC members has changed the dynamic but FAmSCo needs to figure out how to cope effectively with that fact of life.
John
On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, inode0 wrote:
introduction of APAC members has changed the dynamic but FAmSCo needs to figure out how to cope effectively with that fact of life.
A few months ago, I sent out some of my thoughts of what I thought FAMSCO should think about and do in the coming year.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/ambassadors/2011-October/018319.htm...
Reading this thread brings me back to that email, in particular the part of it where I talk about having a strong focus on identifying key Ambassadors in each region of the world, and in connecting potential Fedora contributors in those regions of the world to the global Fedora community.
Sidestep the timezone problem by ensuring that the majority of what FAMSCO members are doing is working with, and providing a leadership presence, in their own region.
But what do I work on, you ask? Again, I reference you back to the 4 main categories that I discussed back in October.
Use the mailing lists (this one as much as possible, but also the famsco list) to share the key points of what is going on, and come up with a way to get status updates pushed out to the list, rather than in an IRC channel.
It will lead to more discussion, better discussion, and a larger group of engaged Ambassadors.
So then what do you do with the FAMSCO meetings?
One of several things:
* An open conversation for anyone who wants to show up at that time, FAMSCO or non-FAMSCO.
* A chance for a subset of FAMSCO to work together on a single topic.
* An opportunity to lock down a fixed time each week during which a Red Hat contact is available to focus entirely on FAMSCO issues.
etc.
My point is, all the tools exist for FAMSCO members to collaborate strongly together outside of IRC. Try it -- but try it in an organized and simple fashion by choosing one or two things to start with -- and change the culture of FAMSCO so that the mailing lists and the wiki are more important, and visible, collaboration points than any one IRC session.
This is easy to say, and hard to do, because it breaks the habits that FAMSCO has fallen into over the past few years. That's why I'd say start small, prove that it can work, and grow.
--Max
On 15 December 2011 11:39, Max Spevack mspevack@fedoraproject.org wrote:
My point is, all the tools exist for FAMSCO members to collaborate strongly together outside of IRC. Try it -- but try it in an organized and simple fashion by choosing one or two things to start with -- and change the culture of FAMSCO so that the mailing lists and the wiki are more important, and visible, collaboration points than any one IRC session.
I presume AFAIK, FAmSCo mailing archives are open to public. I am wondering if we can change that into an internal readable list only. Though FAmSCo can discuss sensitive topics by just sending emails to each other, communicate on FAmSCo mailing list (when it is not open for reading) keep discussions in threads.
IMHO, any topics ambassadors should know, ought to be posted and respond to ambassadors list.
Regards, kaio
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, Caius Chance wrote:
I presume AFAIK, FAmSCo mailing archives are open to public. I am wondering if we can change that into an internal readable list only. Though FAmSCo can discuss sensitive topics by just sending emails to each other, communicate on FAmSCo mailing list (when it is not open for reading) keep discussions in threads.
Ah, the joys of knowing the history of these things.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/famsco/2010-January/000002.html
You'll note that the current famsco@lists.fedoraproject.org started in January 2010. No coincidence that it was at the same time as 2010's FAMSCO started, and made the decision that it was time to open that list's archives up.
I'm going to try to dig up some older mails that had the reasoning behind that, because this ground has been covered before.
--Max
On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Max Spevack wrote:
I'm going to try to dig up some older mails that had the reasoning behind that, because this ground has been covered before.
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2010-01-07/fedora-meeting.20...
I fear that the discussions from the end of 2009 about making a new famsco list with open archives are lost in the archives of the old, private FAMSCO list that wasn't part of lists.fedoraproject.org.
My honest feeling is that there is very little that FAMSCO needs to discuss that can't be discussed in a fully transparent manner.
The only sorts of things that would want privacy are issues regarding potential mis-use of funds, or Fedora code of conduct issues. In which case, starting a private thread with the few email addresses of FAMSCO members is not a heavy burden, and is actually a useful gut-check.
Making it take a bit of effort to start a private thread is a good thing in a project like Fedora Ambassadors that requires transparency in order to be effective.
My recommendation -- don't go back over already-discussed ground. :)
--Max, surprisingly talkative on Fedora-related issues today.
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:59 PM, Max Spevack mspevack@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Ah, the joys of knowing the history of these things.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/famsco/2010-January/000002.html
You'll note that the current famsco@lists.fedoraproject.org started in January 2010. No coincidence that it was at the same time as 2010's FAMSCO started, and made the decision that it was time to open that list's archives up.
I'm going to try to dig up some older mails that had the reasoning behind that, because this ground has been covered before.
Was there more behind it than making some people stop harping on and on about it? :)
So I do have still something of an issue regarding the mail list. Having an open archive is great for creating a public record of discussion, but is really bad for keeping ambassadors in the loop or otherwise engaging them in what is being discussed as remembering to periodically go read the archive not knowing what if anything has been discussed there I am sure isn't something very many people are disciplined enough to do.
If there is any way possible to either (a) open the list so I can subscribe to it and receive mail in the normal course of events or (b) mirror the mail to another list I can subscribe to and receive mail in the normal course of events or (c) tell me how I might accomplish this using the archive would make me do a backflip. I would love to keep informed but really it is too much of a burden to go check archives with any regularity for me to do that.
Thanks, John
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Max Spevack mspevack@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, inode0 wrote:
introduction of APAC members has changed the dynamic but FAmSCo needs to figure out how to cope effectively with that fact of life.
A few months ago, I sent out some of my thoughts of what I thought FAMSCO should think about and do in the coming year.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/ambassadors/2011-October/018319.htm...
Reading this thread brings me back to that email, in particular the part of it where I talk about having a strong focus on identifying key Ambassadors in each region of the world, and in connecting potential Fedora contributors in those regions of the world to the global Fedora community.
Thank you Max, for some good ideas. I think the ideas you list are definitely valid and very apropos. We've already discussed some of them when we were in townhalls, so it seems very relevant.
Sidestep the timezone problem by ensuring that the majority of what FAMSCO members are doing is working with, and providing a leadership presence, in their own region.
But what do I work on, you ask? Again, I reference you back to the 4 main categories that I discussed back in October.
Use the mailing lists (this one as much as possible, but also the famsco list) to share the key points of what is going on, and come up with a way to get status updates pushed out to the list, rather than in an IRC channel.
It will lead to more discussion, better discussion, and a larger group of engaged Ambassadors.
So then what do you do with the FAMSCO meetings?
One of several things:
- An open conversation for anyone who wants to show up at that time, FAMSCO
or non-FAMSCO.
A chance for a subset of FAMSCO to work together on a single topic.
An opportunity to lock down a fixed time each week during which a Red Hat
contact is available to focus entirely on FAMSCO issues.
etc.
In our conversations about scheduling a time, I suggested that the majority of our communication would be by email. Although we should be attending at meeting times to which we agreed, it should be more of a response to the discussions we've been having in email from the previous weeks discussions. The meetings could and should also serve as a Q&A period for ambassadors
My point is, all the tools exist for FAMSCO members to collaborate strongly together outside of IRC. Try it -- but try it in an organized and simple fashion by choosing one or two things to start with -- and change the culture of FAMSCO so that the mailing lists and the wiki are more important, and visible, collaboration points than any one IRC session.
This is easy to say, and hard to do, because it breaks the habits that FAMSCO has fallen into over the past few years. That's why I'd say start small, prove that it can work, and grow.
--Max
Thank you Max, for the strong encouragement, input and leadership over the years. I for one always appreciate the input you provide.
Cheers,
Clint
2011/12/15 Clint Savage herlo@fedoraproject.org:
In our conversations about scheduling a time, I suggested that the majority of our communication would be by email. Although we should be attending at meeting times to which we agreed, it should be more of a response to the discussions we've been having in email from the previous weeks discussions. The meetings could and should also serve as a Q&A period for ambassadors
I totally agree with that point. We need to recognize that get all FAmSCo members together is complicated and not all of them will be available every meeting. FAmSCo mailing list has low traffic regarding topics discussed during the meetings. We could use the list more to post meeting topics follow ups and keep things moving regardless meeting attendance.
Although I arrived a bit late I was in #fedora-meeting for our last meeting and got surprised to see no activity when I logged in. Anyway, I don't think it's fair to draw conclusions based in one meeting that didn't happen. It will take some time for FAmSCo members to get used to the time. My suggestion is to keep the current meeting time and try again next week. Meanwhile, we have a mailing list and a wiki that should be properly used.
Regards, -- Igor Pires Soares Fedora Ambassador (Brazil) - Member of FAmSCo Fedora I18N/L10N QA https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Igor
Am Mittwoch, den 14.12.2011, 17:39 -0800 schrieb Max Spevack:
A few months ago, I sent out some of my thoughts of what I thought FAMSCO should think about and do in the coming year.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/ambassadors/2011-October/018319.htm...
Reading this thread brings me back to that email, in particular the part of it where I talk about having a strong focus on identifying key Ambassadors in each region of the world, and in connecting potential Fedora contributors in those regions of the world to the global Fedora community.
Sidestep the timezone problem by ensuring that the majority of what FAMSCO members are doing is working with, and providing a leadership presence, in their own region.
I think we have already identified the key ambassadors, more precisely the ambassadors have identified and elected them into FAmSCo.
I don't see how we can sidestep the timezone problem, it is a consequence of what we want to achieve.
But what do I work on, you ask? Again, I reference you back to the 4 main categories that I discussed back in October.
Use the mailing lists (this one as much as possible, but also the famsco list) to share the key points of what is going on, and come up with a way to get status updates pushed out to the list, rather than in an IRC channel.
It will lead to more discussion, better discussion, and a larger group of engaged Ambassadors.
While I agree it could increase transparency and will get more ambassadors involved, I consider this ineffective. I don't want to write 10 mails and read 100 for something that can be easily be discussed in a meeting in 10 minutes.
I don't see how this can be replaced with a discussion on a mailing list. Take the budget for example: Do we really want to forward every ticket to a list and discuss it there?
So then what do you do with the FAMSCO meetings?
One of several things:
- An open conversation for anyone who wants to show up at that time,
FAMSCO or non-FAMSCO.
A chance for a subset of FAMSCO to work together on a single topic.
An opportunity to lock down a fixed time each week during which a Red
Hat contact is available to focus entirely on FAMSCO issues.
That's all nice and fair, but IHMO that's not a FAmSCo meeting any longer. And adding an extra Red Hat person will certainly not make it easier to agree on a time.
We do need these meetings to discuss certain things and we need a quorum to make a decision.
My point is, all the tools exist for FAMSCO members to collaborate strongly together outside of IRC.
What tools exactly? We have mailing lists and we have a wiki, but that's all. When it comes to efficiency, none of that can compete with a direct conversation. I really wish we still had Fedora talk.
Try it -- but try it in an organized and simple fashion by choosing one or two things to start with -- and change the culture of FAMSCO so that the mailing lists and the wiki are more important, and visible, collaboration points than any one IRC session.
This is easy to say, and hard to do, because it breaks the habits that FAMSCO has fallen into over the past few years. That's why I'd say start small, prove that it can work, and grow.
You know FAmSCo business better than many of us. What part do you think could be moved over to another form of collaboration easily?
Really, I don't think the problem is breaking the habits. I am willing to try something new, but IHMO we should be very carefully to change things that have proven to work for years.
Regards, Christoph
On 12/15/2011 01:40 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
Am Mittwoch, den 14.12.2011, 17:39 -0800 schrieb Max Spevack:
Sidestep the timezone problem by ensuring that the majority of what FAMSCO members are doing is working with, and providing a leadership presence, in their own region.
I think we have already identified the key ambassadors, more precisely the ambassadors have identified and elected them into FAmSCo.
Oh, I am not sure whether this is the same. Someone can be a key member of a community without taking additional formal roles such as running for and serving on a board.
I don't see how we can sidestep the timezone problem, it is a consequence of what we want to achieve.
Well, this is exactly what all global organizations, be it communities or commercial orgs try to achieve. What Max is referring to is to reduce the number of global synchronized meetings to an absolute minimum. During these meetings, agree on the most important principles, rules and goals. And then leave it up to the regions to organize themselves and to deliver in accordance to those rules.
Use the mailing lists (this one as much as possible, but also the famsco list) to share the key points of what is going on, and come up with a way to get status updates pushed out to the list, rather than in an IRC channel.
It will lead to more discussion, better discussion, and a larger group of engaged Ambassadors.
While I agree it could increase transparency and will get more ambassadors involved, I consider this ineffective. I don't want to write 10 mails and read 100 for something that can be easily be discussed in a meeting in 10 minutes.
A meeting with no attendants is even more ineffective.
See above, if you need to *discuss* something on a global level, a discussion via mailing lists is very transparent, and the asynchronous nature of email gives everyone being interesting the opportunity to catch up and even provide feedback.
If you need to *decide* on something, it might then be worth to bring it up to the next meeting, nicely summarized so that everyone can easily decide during that very meeting.
I don't see how this can be replaced with a discussion on a mailing list. Take the budget for example: Do we really want to forward every ticket to a list and discuss it there?
No. Do you really want to dicuss every budget spending planned in the regions on a global level? I wouldn't. Decide once on the rules, and then leave it up to the region to execute. It can still be done via a ticketing system for the matter of recordkeeping and transparency but does not need to be discussed on a global level.
So then what do you do with the FAMSCO meetings?
One of several things:
- An open conversation for anyone who wants to show up at that time,
FAMSCO or non-FAMSCO.
A chance for a subset of FAMSCO to work together on a single topic.
An opportunity to lock down a fixed time each week during which a
Red Hat contact is available to focus entirely on FAMSCO issues.
That's all nice and fair, but IHMO that's not a FAmSCo meeting any longer. And adding an extra Red Hat person will certainly not make it easier to agree on a time.
We do need these meetings to discuss certain things and we need a quorum to make a decision.
My point is, all the tools exist for FAMSCO members to collaborate strongly together outside of IRC.
What tools exactly? We have mailing lists and we have a wiki, but that's all. When it comes to efficiency, none of that can compete with a direct conversation. I really wish we still had Fedora talk.
I guess it all comes down to personal preferences. I am extremely busy, travelling every single week, have a family. I prefer to use as many asynchronous communication means as possible.
Try it -- but try it in an organized and simple fashion by choosing one or two things to start with -- and change the culture of FAMSCO so that the mailing lists and the wiki are more important, and visible, collaboration points than any one IRC session.
This is easy to say, and hard to do, because it breaks the habits that FAMSCO has fallen into over the past few years. That's why I'd say start small, prove that it can work, and grow.
You know FAmSCo business better than many of us. What part do you think could be moved over to another form of collaboration easily?
Really, I don't think the problem is breaking the habits. I am willing to try something new, but IHMO we should be very carefully to change things that have proven to work for years.
Well, you started complaing about people not showing up to IRC meetings.
Cheers, Matthias
On Thu, 2011-12-15 at 15:09 +0000, Matthias Kranz wrote:
Really, I don't think the problem is breaking the habits. I am willing to try something new, but IHMO we should be very carefully to change things that have proven to work for years.
Well, you started complaing about people not showing up to IRC meetings.
I had internet connection problems.
Other thing mentioned was that we agreed on time, but there was no invitation for the first meeting. In any case, meetings were added to the calendar so everybody will be reminded.
I appreciate the concern expressed for all the people. This was only the first meeting, I hope the second time will be accomplished.
Best regards
Am Donnerstag, den 15.12.2011, 15:09 +0000 schrieb Matthias Kranz:
On 12/15/2011 01:40 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
Am Mittwoch, den 14.12.2011, 17:39 -0800 schrieb Max Spevack:
Sidestep the timezone problem by ensuring that the majority of what FAMSCO members are doing is working with, and providing a leadership presence, in their own region.
I think we have already identified the key ambassadors, more precisely the ambassadors have identified and elected them into FAmSCo.
Oh, I am not sure whether this is the same. Someone can be a key member of a community without taking additional formal roles such as running for and serving on a board.
Hi Matthias,
of course it does not necessarily need to be the same, but if you know the ambassadors and watch this mailing list, you will see that it matches FAmSCo pretty well.
I don't see how we can sidestep the timezone problem, it is a consequence of what we want to achieve.
Well, this is exactly what all global organizations, be it communities or commercial orgs try to achieve. What Max is referring to is to reduce the number of global synchronized meetings to an absolute minimum.
So are we. But if we want to be able to deal with requests in a timely manner, I consider a weekly meeting the minimum.
During these meetings, agree on the most important principles, rules and goals. And then leave it up to the regions to organize themselves and to deliver in accordance to those rules.
That's not how FAmSCo works. Certain things such as the budget need to go though FAmSCo and we need a quorum to make a decision.
I am not saying that we should not try changing this, in fact I made suggestions how to handle the budget better, but we cannot change the rules just because we are having problems to meet. Changing the policies requires a FAmSCo vote, this means it requires a meeting.
Use the mailing lists (this one as much as possible, but also the famsco list) to share the key points of what is going on, and come up with a way to get status updates pushed out to the list, rather than in an IRC channel.
It will lead to more discussion, better discussion, and a larger group of engaged Ambassadors.
While I agree it could increase transparency and will get more ambassadors involved, I consider this ineffective. I don't want to write 10 mails and read 100 for something that can be easily be discussed in a meeting in 10 minutes.
A meeting with no attendants is even more ineffective.
Please don't generalize. It was the first meeting of the newly elected FAmSCo and I'm optimistic we will improve.
See above, if you need to *discuss* something on a global level, a discussion via mailing lists is very transparent, and the asynchronous nature of email gives everyone being interesting the opportunity to catch up and even provide feedback.
Yet though it is ineffective.
Let me play the devil's advocate for a moment: If we discussed the day-to-day FAmSCo business on this list, the feedback we'd get consisted of 90% noise, people just saying "good idea", "thanks", "+1" and so on.
While this is indeed feedback, this is not decision making and doesn't move a discussion forward. Only 10% of the mails are actually helpful, and contain new ideas and opinions. Fedora is meritocracy and I want the active people to state their opinion, to make decisions and move things forward.
If you need to *decide* on something, it might then be worth to bring it up to the next meeting, nicely summarized so that everyone can easily decide during that very meeting.
Did you just say you volunteer to do all this? I am already spending a lot of time on Fedora and I don't have the time to write summaries of weekly email traffic. I count on FAmSCo members to read the list, just as I count on them to not miss a meeting.
And if elected members of a committee really made decisions based on a summary instead of following a discussion, I think something is wrong. We should leave this to politicians, their advisers and their spin-doctors.
I don't see how this can be replaced with a discussion on a mailing list. Take the budget for example: Do we really want to forward every ticket to a list and discuss it there?
No. Do you really want to dicuss every budget spending planned in the regions on a global level? I wouldn't.
During the elections and the townhalls I already talked about this in great length. Please bear with me if I don't want to repeat all that.
Nevertheless I'd like to point out that there are valid reasons to manage the budget on a 'global' level: * Budget is limited and we need to share it wisely between the different regions. * Most of the budget questions are about sponsoring event attendees. If we want to decide if it makes sense to send somebody from EMEA to APAC for a FUDCon, we need to have both people form APAC and EMEA.
Note that 'global' here not only means 'regionally distributed' but also includes people form all projects.
Decide once on the rules, and then leave it up to the region to execute. It can still be done via a ticketing system for the matter of recordkeeping and transparency but does not need to be discussed on a global level.
We are really trying to make all decisions on the lowest possible level, but there are things that cannot be handled in the regular regional meetings. And if we could do everything on a regional level, why did we elect a committee in first place?
My point is, all the tools exist for FAMSCO members to collaborate strongly together outside of IRC.
What tools exactly? We have mailing lists and we have a wiki, but that's all. When it comes to efficiency, none of that can compete with a direct conversation. I really wish we still had Fedora talk.
I guess it all comes down to personal preferences. I am extremely busy, travelling every single week, have a family. I prefer to use as many asynchronous communication means as possible.
Again, what tools exactly? 'Asynchronous communication' is very vague.
Try it -- but try it in an organized and simple fashion by choosing one or two things to start with -- and change the culture of FAMSCO so that the mailing lists and the wiki are more important, and visible, collaboration points than any one IRC session.
This is easy to say, and hard to do, because it breaks the habits that FAMSCO has fallen into over the past few years. That's why I'd say start small, prove that it can work, and grow.
You know FAmSCo business better than many of us. What part do you think could be moved over to another form of collaboration easily?
Really, I don't think the problem is breaking the habits. I am willing to try something new, but IHMO we should be very carefully to change things that have proven to work for years.
Well, you started complaing about people not showing up to IRC meetings.
s/meetings/meeting.
Regards, Christoph
P.S.: Please do not reply to me directly, just to the list is fine.
A lot discussion about Timezones and Meeting-Times and Apologies - i understand this all! But - i do not want to be rude - can you/we all please invest that much energy and time in the FAmSCo Agenda and Topics for 2012?
cu Joerg
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Larry Cafiero larry.cafiero@gmail.com wrote:
Well, never let the voice of experience get in the way of a flippant remark. :-)
Let's take a look at past FAmSCo and their make-up in regard to which time zones they're in, shall we (and we'll count North America and South America together since they share time zones)?
Current: 2 Europe, 2 Asia/Australia, 3 North America/South America Last: 1 Europe, 3 Asia/Australia, 3 North America/South America Dec. 2009-Dec. 2010: 2 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 5 North America/South America Jan. 2009-Dec. 2009: 3 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 4 North America/South America Jan. 2008-Dec. 2008: 4 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 3 North America/South America Oct 2006-Dec. 2007: 2 Europe, 0 Asia/Australia, 5 North America/South America As for the original FAmSCo that came before this one, six of the nine members were in North America.
I will grant that the addition of APAC representatives must surely make the task a little more difficult but let's not throw up our hands and think it insurmountable because once there was a failure on FAmSCo's part to accommodate all members to everyone's satisfaction.
And there is really no timezone situation that explains only one single new member of FAmSCo appearing at its first meeting.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Rose" rose@iastate.edu To: ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:08:39 AM Subject: Re: [Ambassadors] FAmSco meeting 2011-12-14 minutes
I will grant that the addition of APAC representatives must surely make the task a little more difficult but let's not throw up our hands and think it insurmountable because once there was a failure on FAmSCo's part to accommodate all members to everyone's satisfaction.
And there is really no timezone situation that explains only one single new member of FAmSCo appearing at its first meeting.
+1. Totally agree. Especially, in case of that big commitment they had when nominating for FAmSCo.
Meeting time should be re-arranged I think. The less participants attend, the more risk of failures while, you know, all of ambassadors are waiting for your stronger activities.
Kind regards, Tuan
ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org