Today in our meeting (that is still going on) it was brought up that we should push for having firstaidkit-plugins-all for all spins in order to help users who find themselves between a rock and a hard spot.
15:20 < lmacken> fedora-live-base.ks:#firstaidkit-plugin-all
It was then noticed that it is simply commented out in the kickstart, which begs the question: why?
Just a curiosity as to why and if we could move to have it uncommented?
-AdamM
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 03:29:40PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
Today in our meeting (that is still going on) it was brought up that we should push for having firstaidkit-plugins-all for all spins in order to help users who find themselves between a rock and a hard spot.
15:20 < lmacken> fedora-live-base.ks:#firstaidkit-plugin-all
It was then noticed that it is simply commented out in the kickstart, which begs the question: why?
Just a curiosity as to why and if we could move to have it uncommented?
It looks like Rahul Sundaram dropped it to save space, along with a few other non desktop oriented packages, in commit ae4afb9f.
Yum on my rawhide box is telling me that the installed size of the firstaidkit-plugin-all package with deps is 1MB. I haven't attempted to spin up a F13 live image recently, so I'm not sure how tight we currently are for space, but having some system recovery tools in our spins is important.
luke
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 05:09:40PM -0500, Luke Macken wrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 03:29:40PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
Today in our meeting (that is still going on) it was brought up that we should push for having firstaidkit-plugins-all for all spins in order to help users who find themselves between a rock and a hard spot.
15:20 < lmacken> fedora-live-base.ks:#firstaidkit-plugin-all
It was then noticed that it is simply commented out in the kickstart, which begs the question: why?
Just a curiosity as to why and if we could move to have it uncommented?
It looks like Rahul Sundaram dropped it to save space, along with a few other non desktop oriented packages, in commit ae4afb9f.
Yum on my rawhide box is telling me that the installed size of the firstaidkit-plugin-all package with deps is 1MB. I haven't attempted to spin up a F13 live image recently, so I'm not sure how tight we currently are for space, but having some system recovery tools in our spins is important.
And my understanding was the Desktop spin (for instance) was no longer going to target a CD medium because the size limitation is really starting to create substantial problems.
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.com wrote: <SNIP>
And my understanding was the Desktop spin (for instance) was no longer going to target a CD medium because the size limitation is really starting to create substantial problems.
<SNIP>
I don't personally find that wise, but its potentially just my opinion. I just see it bringing a lot of possible issues with projects like FreeMedia attempting to supply live images as well as making complications for Ambassadors who hand out live media at talks/conferences.
Is there some media form that is cheap and easy to hand out to interested parties that I'm unaware of or is the Desktop team now shooting for LiveUSB and just leaving the rest in the dust?
-AdamM
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.comwrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 05:09:40PM -0500, Luke Macken wrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 03:29:40PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
Today in our meeting (that is still going on) it was brought up that we should push for having firstaidkit-plugins-all for all spins in order to help users who find themselves between a rock and a hard spot.
15:20 < lmacken> fedora-live-base.ks:#firstaidkit-plugin-all
It was then noticed that it is simply commented out in the kickstart, which begs the question: why?
Just a curiosity as to why and if we could move to have it uncommented?
It looks like Rahul Sundaram dropped it to save space, along with a few other non desktop oriented packages, in commit ae4afb9f.
Yum on my rawhide box is telling me that the installed size of the firstaidkit-plugin-all package with deps is 1MB. I haven't attempted to spin up a F13 live image recently, so I'm not sure how tight we currently are for space, but having some system recovery tools in our spins is important.
And my understanding was the Desktop spin (for instance) was no longer going to target a CD medium because the size limitation is really starting to create substantial problems.
I think we should be able to pair this down back under 700 meg. My Moblin live image iso comes in at 400 Mb and a basic GNOME desktop only adds 50 meg to this. There is one package that pulls in perl which alone saves over 40 meg off a live CD image so if that could be fixed (i have one bug open for it, need to do one for anaconda) and with some of the other wins that I got from the mini.ks file I would be interested to see what the gnome-desktop size comparison is to the standard base.ks
Peter
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 02:05:03PM +0000, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Paul W. Frields <[1]stickster@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 05:09:40PM -0500, Luke Macken wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 03:29:40PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote: > > Today in our meeting (that is still going on) it was brought up that > > we should push for having firstaidkit-plugins-all for all spins in > > order to help users who find themselves between a rock and a hard > > spot. > > > > 15:20 < lmacken> fedora-live-base.ks:#firstaidkit-plugin-all > > > > It was then noticed that it is simply commented out in the kickstart, > > which begs the question: why? > > > > Just a curiosity as to why and if we could move to have it uncommented? > > It looks like Rahul Sundaram dropped it to save space, along with a few > other non desktop oriented packages, in commit ae4afb9f. > > Yum on my rawhide box is telling me that the installed size of the > firstaidkit-plugin-all package with deps is 1MB. �I haven't attempted to > spin up a F13 live image recently, so I'm not sure how tight we > currently are for space, but having some system recovery tools in our > spins is important. And my understanding was the Desktop spin (for instance) was no longer going to target a CD medium because the size limitation is really starting to create substantial problems.I think we should be able to pair this down back under 700 meg. My Moblin live image iso comes in at 400 Mb and a basic GNOME desktop only adds 50 meg to this. There is one package that pulls in perl which alone saves over 40 meg off a live CD image so if that could be fixed (i have one bug open for it, need to do one for anaconda) and with some of the other wins that I got from the mini.ks file I would be interested to see what the gnome-desktop size comparison is to the standard base.ks
http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/
Looks like ~840-850 MB right now for the desktop spin as-is.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 02:05:03PM +0000, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Paul W. Frields <[1]
stickster@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 05:09:40PM -0500, Luke Macken wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 03:29:40PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote: > > Today in our meeting (that is still going on) it was brought upthat
> > we should push for having firstaidkit-plugins-all for all spinsin
> > order to help users who find themselves between a rock and ahard
> > spot. > > > > 15:20 < lmacken> fedora-live-base.ks:#firstaidkit-plugin-all > > > > It was then noticed that it is simply commented out in the kickstart, > > which begs the question: why? > > > > Just a curiosity as to why and if we could move to have it uncommented? > > It looks like Rahul Sundaram dropped it to save space, along witha
few > other non desktop oriented packages, in commit ae4afb9f. > > Yum on my rawhide box is telling me that the installed size of the > firstaidkit-plugin-all package with deps is 1MB. �I haven'tattempted
to > spin up a F13 live image recently, so I'm not sure how tight we > currently are for space, but having some system recovery tools inour
> spins is important. And my understanding was the Desktop spin (for instance) was nolonger
going to target a CD medium because the size limitation is really starting to create substantial problems.I think we should be able to pair this down back under 700 meg. My
Moblin
live image iso comes in at 400 Mb and a basic GNOME desktop only adds
50
meg to this. There is one package that pulls in perl which alone saves over 40 meg off a live CD image so if that could be fixed (i have one
bug
open for it, need to do one for anaconda) and with some of the other
wins
that I got from the mini.ks file I would be interested to see what the gnome-desktop size comparison is to the standard base.ks
http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/
Looks like ~840-850 MB right now for the desktop spin as-is.
Well simply substituting fedora-mini-base.ks for the fedora-live-base.ks reduced that to 743 Mb based on today's rawhide in a completely un scientific test (shunting it through one of my build VMs and eyeballing the output after a couple of drinks). And looking through the build logs at random packages I don't recognise (yes, I'm that sad.... I can know basically what goes into a moblin or soas build and can see by eye when the deps bloat... sad... very sad!).
I'm not sure why a desktop Live Media spin requires things like a "JavaScript implementation written in Java", the ability to create a yum repo, the ability to master and write CDs and DVDs (aren't we booting from the CD drive?, and alot of devices don't even come with them), "support for making real-mode x86 calls with an emulated x86 processor." (we support x86 emulation on the desktop live cd..? Java possibly) , a "Documentation generator for Java source code" (me thinks someone needs to bother the java guys about their deps because there's a lot here..... good thing they don't support java on the XO.... yet :-D ) and that doesn't even count the 50 meg that perl adds :-)
Also not sure why we ship apache, but I can almost forgive the sshd service :-)
I'll try to get time to look at some of the deps in the desktop spin and see if we can't get that down again by F-13 final. There looks to be some reasonably easy targets there. Although java looks like it could (should) be encouraged to split out its dependencies.
Peter
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 09:10:20PM +0000, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Paul W. Frields <[1]stickster@gmail.com> [3]http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/
Looks like ~840-850 MB right now for the desktop spin as-is.Well simply substituting fedora-mini-base.ks for the fedora-live-base.ks reduced that to 743 Mb based on today's rawhide in a completely un scientific test (shunting it through one of my build VMs and eyeballing the output after a couple of drinks). And looking through the build logs at random packages I don't recognise (yes, I'm that sad.... I can know basically what goes into a moblin or soas build and can see by eye when the deps bloat... sad... very sad!).
I'm not sure why a desktop Live Media spin requires things like a "JavaScript implementation written in Java",
Doesn't ring a bell, but clutter-related maybe?
[...snip...]
the ability to master and write CDs and DVDs (aren't we booting from the CD drive? and alot of devices don't even come with them),
It might be a Live USB... and remember that people install from this media to a hard disk, and probably want that function available afterward.
"support for making real-mode x86 calls with an emulated x86 processor." (we support x86 emulation on the desktop live cd..? Java possibly) , a "Documentation generator for Java source code" (me thinks someone needs to bother the java guys about their deps because there's a lot here..... good thing they don't support java on the XO.... yet :-D ) and that doesn't even count the 50 meg that perl adds :-)
Also not sure why we ship apache, but I can almost forgive the sshd service :-)
gnome-user-share -- which is a DAV share using ~/Public by default when turned on.
I'll try to get time to look at some of the deps in the desktop spin and see if we can't get that down again by F-13 final. There looks to be some reasonably easy targets there. Although java looks like it could (should) be encouraged to split out its dependencies.
I think the Java dependency issue won't be news, and I don't recall anyone saying it can't be solved. Some of the other dependencies from above may be important; the desktop@ list or someone on the GIMPNet #fedora-desktop channel will be able to tell you[1].
* * * [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop#Communication
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 10:28 PM, Paul W. Frields stickster@gmail.comwrote:
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 09:10:20PM +0000, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Paul W. Frields <[1]
stickster@gmail.com>
[3]http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/ Looks like ~840-850 MB right now for the desktop spin as-is.Well simply substituting fedora-mini-base.ks for the
fedora-live-base.ks
reduced that to 743 Mb based on today's rawhide in a completely un scientific test (shunting it through one of my build VMs and
eyeballing
the output after a couple of drinks). And looking through the build
logs
at random packages I don't recognise (yes, I'm that sad.... I can know basically what goes into a moblin or soas build and can see by eye
when
the deps bloat... sad... very sad!).
I'm not sure why a desktop Live Media spin requires things like a "JavaScript implementation written in Java",
Doesn't ring a bell, but clutter-related maybe?
Pulled in by the java stack it seems (I would know clutter deps via moblin :).
the ability to master and write CDs and DVDs (aren't we booting from the CD drive? and alot of devices don't even come with them),
It might be a Live USB... and remember that people install from this media to a hard disk, and probably want that function available afterward.
OK, fair enough.
"support for making real-mode x86 calls with an emulated x86 processor." (we support x86 emulation on the desktop live cd..? Java possibly) , a "Documentation generator for Java source code" (me thinks someone needs to bother the java guys about their deps because there's a lot here..... good thing they don't support java on the XO.... yet :-D ) and that doesn't even count the 50 meg that perl adds :-)
Also not sure why we ship apache, but I can almost forgive the sshd service :-)
gnome-user-share -- which is a DAV share using ~/Public by default when turned on.
I'll try to get time to look at some of the deps in the desktop spin
and
see if we can't get that down again by F-13 final. There looks to be
some
reasonably easy targets there. Although java looks like it could
(should)
be encouraged to split out its dependencies.
I think the Java dependency issue won't be news, and I don't recall anyone saying it can't be solved. Some of the other dependencies from above may be important; the desktop@ list or someone on the GIMPNet #fedora-desktop channel will be able to tell you[1].
Yea, I don't really get the ability to use irc much as its blocked via work, and generally forget to sign on. I'm sure alot are perfectly valid, but we about 13% difference with the mini-base.ks and if we can get rid of perl (which is used by a syslinux tool within anaconda for the creation of hybrid isos AFICT - further investigations this week and then a bug report) we'd be back below 700 meg so the issue isn't surmountable.
Peter
[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Desktop#Communication
-- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ Where open source multiplies: http://opensource.com _______________________________________________ spins mailing list spins@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/spins
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 9:29 PM, Adam Miller maxamillion@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
Today in our meeting (that is still going on) it was brought up that we should push for having firstaidkit-plugins-all for all spins in order to help users who find themselves between a rock and a hard spot.
15:20 < lmacken> fedora-live-base.ks:#firstaidkit-plugin-all
It was then noticed that it is simply commented out in the kickstart, which begs the question: why?
Just a curiosity as to why and if we could move to have it uncommented?
From the discussion from later on to do with deps what does the
firstaidkit-plugin-xserver and firstaidkit-gui pull in. Is it possible to have a -cli package which pulls in just the cli based firstaidkit stuff for -base and then the proposed desktop-base pull in -all because that will have X?
Cheers, Peter
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Peter Robinson pbrobinson@gmail.com wrote: <snip>
From the discussion from later on to do with deps what does the firstaidkit-plugin-xserver and firstaidkit-gui pull in. Is it possible to have a -cli package which pulls in just the cli based firstaidkit stuff for -base and then the proposed desktop-base pull in -all because that will have X?
<snip>
I'm open to the idea of that, I just think it would be nice to showcase the firstaidkit stuff across the board. I don't entirely know off the top of my head if it is in fact possible but I imagine it could be done as it appears that those would just be metapackages (which kind of annoys me but I'll get over it).
-AdamM
-
Adam Miller -
Adam Miller -
Luke Macken -
Paul W. Frields -
Peter Robinson