Hello friends of Fedora,
I would like to propose a new release covering criterion that was suggested on the yesterday's Blocker Review Meeting. Please let me know, what you think about it and perhaps suggest improvements.
Target: *Preferably Beta*
*Proposal 1 (conservative criterion)*
*On computers with dual video cards (or with external video output) the system must be able to display the video content on each connected device. Any release blocking desktop must provide ways to set up various display modes (mirroring, extension), scaling, resolution, frequency, and orientation). *
*Proposal 2 (bold criterion)* *On computers with dual video cards (or with external video output), as well as with multiple video cards, the system must be able to display the video content on each connected device. Any release blocking desktop must provide ways to set up various display modes (mirroring, extension), scaling, resolution, frequency, and orientation).*
Should multiple displays be a release-blocking criterion? I can imagine a desire to ship a new release on-schedule because of significant, content that works fine, but with multiple display support deferred for an update because upstream problems are likely to take a while to fix. I am uncomfortable with the notion that a release must wait for all desktops to work with multiple displays on erery architecture. It is desirable, yes, but this sounds like a QA attempt to control development.
Your criterion should be limited to hardware that works in single display configurations.
I think two displays is a reasonable limitation. Even with that, test coverage will be extremely sparse - there are just too many devices to make tests of different combinations practical. (If we cannot test it, we should not claim a release meets a criterion.)
If I can install three graphics adapters in a machine, and each supports four displays, would you require that I can run 12 displays on each desktop? Lovely if it works, but too rare a use case to be a blocker, or even to test on a regular basis.
Slots capable of driving a graphics adapter are very limited, but what about USB devices? With a few hubs, I could connect scores of displays, and your criterion asserts they will work.
Thanks for your view.
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 3:45 PM Richard Ryniker ryniker@ryniker.org wrote:
desktops to work with multiple displays on erery architecture. It is desirable, yes, but this sounds like a QA attempt to control development.
No, this is not a QA attempt to control development. This is a reaction to a bug proposal that aspires to become a blocker for Fedora 34 Final (see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1942175). Actually, behaviour like that does not violate any criteria, so theoretically there is no way how this could block the release, but we somehow feel (at least I do) that such behaviour is a nasty thing and should not happen on a mature system which I believe Fedora is.
Your criterion should be limited to hardware that works in single display configurations.
I think two displays is a reasonable limitation. Even with that, test coverage will be extremely sparse - there are just too many devices to make tests of different combinations practical. (If we cannot test it, we should not claim a release meets a criterion.)
I agree, therefore my conservative criterion only suggests dual video cards (I hope I have understood the term correctly and dual video cards are cards that enable two monitors) or an external monitor output (like a laptop would have).
You probably would agree that one external device (in case of a laptop) or two monitors (in case of a desktop) is a reasonable expectation where people need to connect projectors, external monitors, etc.
If I can install three graphics adapters in a machine, and each supports four displays, would you require that I can run 12 displays on each desktop? Lovely if it works, but too rare a use case to be a blocker, or even to test on a regular basis.
That is why I have put the draft here to collect views and suggestions, so if you believe you could help with the exact wording to exclude the above situation, please go ahead.
Thanks, Lukas
Slots capable of driving a graphics adapter are very limited, but what about USB devices? With a few hubs, I could connect scores of displays, and your criterion asserts they will work. _______________________________________________ test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Hi Lukas,
*On computers with dual video cards (or with external video output), as
well as with multiple video cards*
In regard to the above, I think what you intend to say is: "On computers with video-out capability, as well as with multiple video cards...", or something like that. As it reads now, "dual video cards" and "multiple video cards" are a way of saying the same thing; the "dual" implies two cards, where the "multiple" implies more-than-one card. I hope that makes it clearer.
In all, I am skeptical that blocking a release based off of video-out working is worth having. If one monitor works, be that the integrated monitor in a laptop, or a single display connected to a desktop, I think that's enough to have a basic user experience and have the ability to submit a bug report. However, I do see your point when you say that you believe that a mature system like Fedora should have multiple-display capability; I agree with this. From my past experience, I know that graphics driver issues (noveau, nVidia, etc) can render the entire graphics ability unable to work in some fashion, and being that Fedora is not the direct maintainer of these drivers, I wonder how long it would take to get a fix should this occur in the wild.
I can appreciate the more conservative of the two criteria; my interpretation of what you have written there is that any computer with one video card that has video-out capability must work. Between the two, I would pick this one. Having to test all of the different outputs on a system with more than one video card would be extremely tedious and I believe a corner case.
Geoff Marr IRC: coremodule
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 10:08 AM Lukas Ruzicka lruzicka@redhat.com wrote:
Thanks for your view.
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 3:45 PM Richard Ryniker ryniker@ryniker.org wrote:
desktops to work with multiple displays on erery architecture. It is desirable, yes, but this sounds like a QA attempt to control development.
No, this is not a QA attempt to control development. This is a reaction to a bug proposal that aspires to become a blocker for Fedora 34 Final (see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1942175). Actually, behaviour like that does not violate any criteria, so theoretically there is no way how this could block the release, but we somehow feel (at least I do) that such behaviour is a nasty thing and should not happen on a mature system which I believe Fedora is.
Your criterion should be limited to hardware that works in single display configurations.
I think two displays is a reasonable limitation. Even with that, test coverage will be extremely sparse - there are just too many devices to make tests of different combinations practical. (If we cannot test it, we should not claim a release meets a criterion.)
I agree, therefore my conservative criterion only suggests dual video cards (I hope I have understood the term correctly and dual video cards are cards that enable two monitors) or an external monitor output (like a laptop would have).
You probably would agree that one external device (in case of a laptop) or two monitors (in case of a desktop) is a reasonable expectation where people need to connect projectors, external monitors, etc.
If I can install three graphics adapters in a machine, and each supports four displays, would you require that I can run 12 displays on each desktop? Lovely if it works, but too rare a use case to be a blocker, or even to test on a regular basis.
That is why I have put the draft here to collect views and suggestions, so if you believe you could help with the exact wording to exclude the above situation, please go ahead.
Thanks, Lukas
Slots capable of driving a graphics adapter are very limited, but what about USB devices? With a few hubs, I could connect scores of displays, and your criterion asserts they will work. _______________________________________________ test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
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lruzicka@redhat.com TRIED AND PERSONALLY TESTED, ERGO TRUSTED. https://redhat.com/trusted _______________________________________________ test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Lukas Ruzicka composed on 2021-03-30 13:22 (UTC+0200):
*On computers with dual video cards (or with external video output) the system must be able to display the video content on each connected device.
Above to me is rather ambiguous.
Laptops generally have one external output only.
Traditional PCs only have external outputs. One or more may be motherboard outputs. One or more may be on one or more graphics "expansion" cards. A PC may have both expansion and motherboard outputs.
Docking stations may be employed, confusing the concepts of outputs even more.
Better would be language of connected displays in lieu of video outputs or "cards".
If the criteria were to be implemented, as others have mentioned, blocking would have to be limited to two displays, however connected, on account of limited facility to test more than two, and the many possible permutations of connectivity.
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:27 PM Lukas Ruzicka lruzicka@redhat.com wrote:
Hello friends of Fedora,
I would like to propose a new release covering criterion that was suggested on the yesterday's Blocker Review Meeting. Please let me know, what you think about it and perhaps suggest improvements.
Target: *Preferably Beta*
*Proposal 1 (conservative criterion)*
*On computers with dual video cards (or with external video output) the system must be able to display the video content on each connected device. Any release blocking desktop must provide ways to set up various display modes (mirroring, extension), scaling, resolution, frequency, and orientation). *
*Proposal 2 (bold criterion)* *On computers with dual video cards (or with external video output), as well as with multiple video cards, the system must be able to display the video content on each connected device. Any release blocking desktop must provide ways to set up various display modes (mirroring, extension), scaling, resolution, frequency, and orientation).*
As someone who hasn't been at the blocker meeting, I find the criterion confusing and don't understand the terminology. As far as I know, the "dual head" term is used to describe having two monitors. Not graphics cards, monitors. That's the first source of my confusion, because the title doesn't seem to match the criterion text. Second, what is an "external video output"? Is it some particular connector? Or an external graphics card? Third, "dual video cards" (two) is a subset of "multiple video cards" (many), the phrasing seems weird. Fourth, is this criterion about graphics cards producing output in general, or about all output connectors having to work properly? E.g. if a grapics card 1 can display output on DP1, but not HDMI1 nor HDMI2, is that a violation? Fifth, what about graphics cards that share the same output connectors, and pass through their data? This is common on laptops, you often have two graphics cards inside (one inside the CPU and one dedicated), but only one set of connectors. Does this mean that connectors must work ("on each connected device") or that you must be able to switch between those two cards (if possible) and the output must work in both cases? Sixth, why are the blocking desktops required to provide ways to configure display modes (mirroring, etc) only when you have 2+ graphics cards, but not when you have just a single card? Again, this seems to mix up multiple displays vs multiple graphics cards. The phrasing also doesn't say whether the configuration must work properly, or just be available.
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:27 AM Lukas Ruzicka lruzicka@redhat.com wrote:
I would like to propose a new release covering criterion that was suggested on the yesterday's Blocker Review Meeting. Please let me know, what you think about it and perhaps suggest improvements.
I like the idea of dual monitors being a blocker in general, but as this thread shows, it gets complicated quickly. I think if we do this, it should be very narrowly scoped. The two main use cases we need to worry about are:
1. Laptop with an external monitor (and does it have to be directly attached, or would we block if a monitor attached via a docking station doesn't work?) 2. Desktop with a single video card that drives two monitors
I suspect that this would cover most usage without getting too caught up in all of the possible hardware combinations, especially since one major video card manufacturer isn't the best at supporting Linux.
On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 1:12 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:27 AM Lukas Ruzicka lruzicka@redhat.com wrote:
I would like to propose a new release covering criterion that was suggested on the yesterday's Blocker Review Meeting. Please let me know, what you think about it and perhaps suggest improvements.
I like the idea of dual monitors being a blocker in general, but as this thread shows, it gets complicated quickly. I think if we do this, it should be very narrowly scoped. The two main use cases we need to worry about are:
- Laptop with an external monitor (and does it have to be directly
attached, or would we block if a monitor attached via a docking station doesn't work?) 2. Desktop with a single video card that drives two monitors
I suspect that this would cover most usage without getting too caught up in all of the possible hardware combinations, especially since one major video card manufacturer isn't the best at supporting Linux.
I agree.
On Thu, 2021-04-01 at 23:36 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 1:12 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:27 AM Lukas Ruzicka lruzicka@redhat.com wrote:
I would like to propose a new release covering criterion that was suggested on the yesterday's Blocker Review Meeting. Please let me know, what you think about it and perhaps suggest improvements.
I like the idea of dual monitors being a blocker in general, but as this thread shows, it gets complicated quickly. I think if we do this, it should be very narrowly scoped. The two main use cases we need to worry about are:
- Laptop with an external monitor (and does it have to be directly
attached, or would we block if a monitor attached via a docking station doesn't work?) 2. Desktop with a single video card that drives two monitors
I suspect that this would cover most usage without getting too caught up in all of the possible hardware combinations, especially since one major video card manufacturer isn't the best at supporting Linux.
I agree.
Yeah, I think even the 'conservative' version is a bit too ambitious for a first movement towards blocking on this. I agree with Ben and Chris about restricting it to these most-common and most-important cases, and we might want to hedge it around a bit with reference to the relevant FAQ sections:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Blocker_Bug_FAQ#What_about_hardware_and_local... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Blocker_Bug_FAQ#Why_isn.27t_my_graphics_card_...
I think personally I'd probably only be inclined to take a bug in this area as a blocker if it completely broke external output on a popular laptop line or family (e.g. XPS 13, Thinkpad X1), or broke things across a popular family or generation of desktop adapters...
Well, I agree that the terminology might not be the most exact, but I was not expecting that this version will be taken as is, I rather wanted to start a discussion. Since this one has been the only proposal that appeared on the list, I think I did a good thing to start it no matter what confusion it might have caused.
Those, who were present at the meeting, might remember that when we were discussing the possible need of that criterion, there were two approaches:
1. one card -> two monitors 2. two cards -> two monitors
and it was not clearly decided which one should be the one. Now, reading through the above posts, I think we do know it: *one card -> two monitors.*
In this rank, I see the following options and this is basically what I wanted to suggest in the *conservative criterion* and this is also what I fully support. TLDR I think it matches Ben's view:
- a desktop computer has one graphical adapter with two outputs, so two monitors can be used - a laptop has an output for external monitor and it can be used (if the laptop has two cards and the external monitor can only be used when both cards are in operation, then I would rather not block on this or limit this to popular devices (as Adam suggests)). - With the gnome-control-center or KDE Settings, it should be possible to organize the monitors and to set-up their modes *independently for any of them. *I believe that we already have a criterion that could be used when these things do not work with a single (main) monitor.
Lukas
On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 1:53 AM Adam Williamson adamwill@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Thu, 2021-04-01 at 23:36 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 1:12 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:27 AM Lukas Ruzicka lruzicka@redhat.com
wrote:
I would like to propose a new release covering criterion that was
suggested on the yesterday's Blocker Review Meeting. Please let me know, what you think about it and perhaps suggest improvements.
I like the idea of dual monitors being a blocker in general, but as this thread shows, it gets complicated quickly. I think if we do this, it should be very narrowly scoped. The two main use cases we need to worry about are:
- Laptop with an external monitor (and does it have to be directly
attached, or would we block if a monitor attached via a docking station doesn't work?) 2. Desktop with a single video card that drives two monitors
I suspect that this would cover most usage without getting too caught up in all of the possible hardware combinations, especially since one major video card manufacturer isn't the best at supporting Linux.
I agree.
Yeah, I think even the 'conservative' version is a bit too ambitious for a first movement towards blocking on this. I agree with Ben and Chris about restricting it to these most-common and most-important cases, and we might want to hedge it around a bit with reference to the relevant FAQ sections:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Blocker_Bug_FAQ#What_about_hardware_and_local...
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Blocker_Bug_FAQ#Why_isn.27t_my_graphics_card_...
I think personally I'd probably only be inclined to take a bug in this area as a blocker if it completely broke external output on a popular laptop line or family (e.g. XPS 13, Thinkpad X1), or broke things across a popular family or generation of desktop adapters... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha https://www.happyassassin.net
test mailing list -- test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to test-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/test@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 9:17 PM Ben Cotton bcotton@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 7:27 AM Lukas Ruzicka lruzicka@redhat.com wrote:
I would like to propose a new release covering criterion that was
suggested on the yesterday's Blocker Review Meeting. Please let me know, what you think about it and perhaps suggest improvements.
I like the idea of dual monitors being a blocker in general, but as this thread shows, it gets complicated quickly. I think if we do this, it should be very narrowly scoped. The two main use cases we need to worry about are:
- Laptop with an external monitor (and does it have to be directly
attached, or would we block if a monitor attached via a docking station doesn't work?)
In this case it needs to be clarified whether we're talking about a laptop which has a single graphics card, or whether it might have multiple (as is often the case nowadays, unfortunately most likely involving an Nvidia card). In case of multiple, whether a single card working is sufficient for passing that criterion (provided it is possible to toggle between them in bios or using specialized tools) or whether both must work even if toggle-able. If they can't be toggled, whether that situation is also covered (this is the most complicated and most often broken scenario). Docking stations also need to be mentioned, yes.
-
Adam Williamson -
Ben Cotton -
Chris Murphy -
Felix Miata -
Geoffrey Marr -
Kamil Paral -
Lukas Ruzicka -
Richard Ryniker