Hi everybody,
So far with redhat/fedora installation, it has been the default, that if I select full installation, I have all the language packages installed as default. (For ex: kde-i18n-* packages). It would be better, if the installation does install only the packages related to the language that is selected at the begining of the installation, for ex: If I select US.English, the kde-i18n packages neednot be installed, so that it saves something around 370MB of valuable space. It would be better to have it as default way instead of deselecting individual packages during the installation.
Poonchezhian P. said:
Hi everybody,
So far with redhat/fedora installation, it has been the default, that if I select full installation,
[snip]
so that it saves something around 370MB of valuable space.
[snip]
I would guess not doing a full install would save even more valuable space.
"William Hooper" whooperhsd3@earthlink.net writes:
Poonchezhian P. said:
Hi everybody,
So far with redhat/fedora installation, it has been the default, that if I select full installation,
[snip]
so that it saves something around 370MB of valuable space.
[snip]
I would guess not doing a full install would save even more valuable space.
But take even more valuable time.
When you have a mechanism in place to select language, what sense does it make to then default to installing all languages?
Harry Putnam said:
I would guess not doing a full install would save even more valuable space.
But take even more valuable time.
"Install Everything" should mean _everything_. Meaning anything else doesn't make sense. If you are doing installs often enought that it costs that much time, invest in learning kickstart and save yourself even more time.
I thought the "Minimal install isn't minimal enough" discussions were bad, now we are going to have a "Everything install is too everything" discussion?
On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 10:52:25AM -0500, William Hooper wrote:
"Install Everything" should mean _everything_. Meaning anything else doesn't make sense. If you are doing installs often enought that it costs that much time, invest in learning kickstart and save yourself even more time.
Yet another reason for removing the "Install Everything" option. :)
tor, 16.12.2004 kl. 17.56 skrev Matthew Miller:
On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 10:52:25AM -0500, William Hooper wrote:
"Install Everything" should mean _everything_. Meaning anything else doesn't make sense. If you are doing installs often enought that it costs that much time, invest in learning kickstart and save yourself even more time.
Yet another reason for removing the "Install Everything" option. :)
multi-purpose machines? You know those boxes who acts as a workstation for web, email, office etc., as a scientific workstation, as a developers workstation, as a writers workstation, as a web, mail, sql (2 different kinds), shell (telnet, rsh, ssh. Just to cater everyone) server, and all kinds of stuff i can't come up with right now... Those machines.
If only extras had a cd or 5 as well... :P That would make a really *complete* system :) Christ, your kids could be playing potatoguy, while you made aeronautical calcultations, and somebody else was surfing the web (with links and a serial console). Let's take multitasking to the next level!!!
No joke intended The line over is a joke
Kyrre
On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 08:57:46PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
multi-purpose machines? You know those boxes who acts as a workstation for web, email, office etc., as a scientific workstation, as a developers workstation, as a writers workstation, as a web, mail, sql (2 different kinds), shell (telnet, rsh, ssh. Just to cater everyone) server, and all kinds of stuff i can't come up with right now... Those machines.
Yeah. Also you're running clustering software on the standalone system. And hey, you're a kerberos server!
tor, 16.12.2004 kl. 21.13 skrev Matthew Miller:
On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 08:57:46PM +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote:
multi-purpose machines? You know those boxes who acts as a workstation for web, email, office etc., as a scientific workstation, as a developers workstation, as a writers workstation, as a web, mail, sql (2 different kinds), shell (telnet, rsh, ssh. Just to cater everyone) server, and all kinds of stuff i can't come up with right now... Those machines.
Yeah. Also you're running clustering software on the standalone system. And hey, you're a kerberos server!
Well... You *could* run vmware and run nodes in it...
Doubt that it would give you any speed advantage, tough...
-- Matthew Miller mattdm@mattdm.org http://www.mattdm.org/ Boston University Linux ------> http://linux.bu.edu/
On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 16:56, Matthew Miller wrote:
Yet another reason for removing the "Install Everything" option. :)
I know I'm late to this thread, and yes I did see the smiley in the post above, but just in case anyone is considering removing the "Install Everything" option I'd like to make a personal plea, or otherwise provide an argument for its existence: As a web developer I have to be able to (even only roughly) mimic a clients system when I am prototyping something here on my workstation, and that really does mean having everything there to try out -- whether it's MySQL or Postgresql, or sendmail versus postfix, or what does this site look like in Mozilla and Konqueror (a reasonably reliable guide for how it might look in Safari).
I always choose the "install everything" option and it is very useful to me. So I hope no one out there is assuming it isn't just because they don't use it.
Best, D
On Thursday 16 December 2004 13:50, William Hooper wrote:
So far with redhat/fedora installation, it has been the default, that if I select full installation,
...
so that it saves something around 370MB of valuable space.
I would guess not doing a full install would save even more valuable space.
I'm not quite sure what is meant by "full installation", but one does get an awful lot of i18n files if one simply opts for the standard installation.
While in principle I like the idea - we live on a shrinking globe - the chances of my wanting to read a document in Serbo-Croat is vanishingly small.
Actually, it's not so much the installation that concerns me - it is more the fact that every now and then yum downloads a newversion of every locale in theuniverse - and I find it difficult to believe that all have been updated.
Timothy Murphy said:
On Thursday 16 December 2004 13:50, William Hooper wrote:
So far with redhat/fedora installation, it has been the default, that if I select full installation,
...
so that it saves something around 370MB of valuable space.
I would guess not doing a full install would save even more valuable space.
I'm not quite sure what is meant by "full installation", but one does get an awful lot of i18n files if one simply opts for the standard installation.
Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is exactly one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large file, but that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into different RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional languges you can just remove it.
On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 11:01 -0500, William Hooper wrote:
Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is exactly one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large file, but that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into different RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional languges you can just remove it.
Furthermore, language-specific files in openoffice.org-i18n are tagged with "rpm_lang" so you can actually make RPM _not_ install files that aren't your language by setting some magic RPM option which I forget.
Dan
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 11:09:15 -0500, Dan Williams dcbw@redhat.com wrote:
Furthermore, language-specific files in openoffice.org-i18n are tagged with "rpm_lang" so you can actually make RPM _not_ install files that aren't your language by setting some magic RPM option which I forget.
hmmmm, so your saying that rpm will selectively install language specific files at package install time based on what languages(s) i have my system setup for?
Is there a mechanism by which you can add languages to your system later... and then "reinstall" packages so that the new language payloads from already installed packages get placed on the system?
-jef
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Is there a mechanism by which you can add languages to your system later... and then "reinstall" packages so that the new language payloads from already installed packages get placed on the system?
This is sometime I wondered too! I often have people install Fedora only in English to "check it out." Then later they say "ok, I like it. How can I add the Russian" (or Chinese, etc.) Besides poring over the package list, adding anything that looked appropriate, I didn't know what to tell them.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
-jef
-- noah
On Dec 16, 2004, "Noah Silva [Mailing list]" nsilva-list@aoi.atari-source.com wrote:
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
Is there a mechanism by which you can add languages to your system later... and then "reinstall" packages so that the new language payloads from already installed packages get placed on the system?
This is sometime I wondered too! I often have people install Fedora only in English to "check it out." Then later they say "ok, I like it. How can I add the Russian" (or Chinese, etc.) Besides poring over the package list, adding anything that looked appropriate, I didn't know what to tell them.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
That's one of the reasons why the installer no longer sets %_install_langs in say ~root/.rpmmacros according to the install-time selection, otherwise the only way to add languages later is to reinstall all packages that might have been only partially-installed.
This unfortunately doesn't solve the entire problem, since some language-specific packages (kde-i18n-* comes to mind) still get filtered out, since the package is only brought in if the language is selected for installation.
I.e., we have two language exclusion mechanisms, and the installer is inconsistent in the way it uses them. Which is not to say that being consistent would make everybody happy. If we made it consistent in that all langs were installed, some would complain even more about spending disk space on translations they don't use. If we made it consistent in installing only what the user asked for, many would be inconvenienced by the need for reinstalling packages to get additional languages.
What would make things better IMHO would be to transparently break up lang-specific bits into separate rpms, and have some form of conditional dependency in rpm or in dep resolvers that would enable a user to install additional language meta-packages later on, that would bring in the localization packages by means of dependencies of the form `if package X is installed, install X-lang'.
Or we could turn it around, and have a dependency in X such as `if lang-L is installed, require X-L'.
Either way, it's more work for dep solvers, but I see other nice uses for such conditional dependencies.
I.e., we have two language exclusion mechanisms, and the installer is inconsistent in the way it uses them. Which is not to say that being consistent would make everybody happy. If we made it consistent in that all langs were installed, some would complain even more about spending disk space on translations they don't use. If we made it consistent in installing only what the user asked for, many would be inconvenienced by the need for reinstalling packages to get additional languages.
What would make things better IMHO would be to transparently break up lang-specific bits into separate rpms, and have some form of conditional dependency in rpm or in dep resolvers that would enable a user to install additional language meta-packages later on, that would bring in the localization packages by means of dependencies of the form `if package X is installed, install X-lang'.
This seems like a good plan, but would result in there being many more packages. Besides that, though, I will admit to being a little recent to Redhat/Fedora, but at least in Debian, it seemed like when I installed a package, it installed all languages for that package. I thought that was "how things worked" in linux - which I liked, compared to trying to have two languages of the same software package installed in windows. What a nightmare!
If the language files took up so much space though, I could see a solution similar to man pages working out. They are installed gzipped, and unzipped on first use.
The problem I am referring to is more that the fonts might not be there, or the IME packages needed to enter Chinese might be hard to add later on, etc.
Or we could turn it around, and have a dependency in X such as `if lang-L is installed, require X-L'.
Either way, it's more work for dep solvers, but I see other nice uses for such conditional dependencies.
My real question was, how do you -tell- if lang-L is installed. Does the installer save this somewhere?
(Anyway I tell people now: Install any languages you or anyone who uses this computer might need when you install Fedora...)
-- noah
On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 11:09:15AM -0500, Dan Williams wrote:
On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 11:01 -0500, William Hooper wrote:
Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is exactly one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large file, but that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into different RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional languges you can just remove it.
Furthermore, language-specific files in openoffice.org-i18n are tagged with "rpm_lang" so you can actually make RPM _not_ install files that aren't your language by setting some magic RPM option which I forget.
Not really an option but a macro called %_install_langs and which happens to be defined as 'all' in /usr/lib/rpm/macros.
Indeed after dropping in a file /etc/rpm/macros.lang with the following line in it:
%_install_langs C:en:pl:fr:ru
I see after 'rpm -qls openoffice.org-i18n' 6029 "not installed" lines while 'rpm -qV openoffice.org-i18n' is still happy.
There are two troubles with that. One is that there is no way to specify that during an initial installation (and I did not check if anaconda will honour that during upgrades but it would not surprise me if not). You have to do a package update after you added your own definition for %_install_langs or force a reinstallation ('glibc-common' can be slimmed down quite a bit too and particularly on a laptop this may make a substantial difference). The other one is that this bit of information seems to be a quite "esotheric knowledge" and I am not even sure if it is properly documented somewhere.
Michal
On Thursday 16 December 2004 16:01, William Hooper wrote:
I'm not quite sure what is meant by "full installation", but one does get an awful lot of i18n files if one simply opts for the standard installation.
Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is exactly one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large file, but that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into different RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional languges you can just remove it.
I admit I'm not quite sure where these came from, but I have: ============================================ [tim@alfred ~]$ grep i18n /var/log/rpmpkgs kde-i18n-Brazil-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-British-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Czech-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Danish-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Dutch-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Estonian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-French-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-German-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Hungarian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Italian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Japanese-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Polish-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Portuguese-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Romanian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Russian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Slovak-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Slovenian-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Spanish-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Swedish-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-Turkish-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm openoffice.org-i18n-1.1.2-11.5.fc3.i386.rpm ============================================
I'm actually quite frightened to remove anything nowadays, as I ran "yum remove <a package>" some time ago, and it seemed to remove half my system.
Please remember that some of us (most of us?) do not really know what we are doing ...
Timothy Murphy said:
On Thursday 16 December 2004 16:01, William Hooper wrote:
I'm not quite sure what is meant by "full installation", but one does get an awful lot of i18n files if one simply opts for the standard installation.
Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is exactly one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large file, but that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into different RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional languges you can just remove it.
I admit I'm not quite sure where these came from, but I have:
[tim@alfred ~]$ grep i18n /var/log/rpmpkgs kde-i18n-Brazil-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-British-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
I notice these are all kde releated, so they aren't installed by default.
That said, the question then becomes what installed them? Was it selecting KDE during the install or an attempt to install KDE after the fact? It doesn't appear anything requires these packages, the don't appear to be in the KDE groups for yum. If I get a chnace later maybe I'll try running another install and see if it is anaconda.
On Friday 17 December 2004 01:31, William Hooper wrote:
Perhaps you could elaborate? On my Workstation install there is exactly one *i18n* RPM: openoffice.org-i18n. Granted it is a large file, but that has already been discussed and IIRC will be broken into different RPMs for FC4. That said if you don't need the additional languges you can just remove it.
I admit I'm not quite sure where these came from, but I have:
[tim@alfred ~]$ grep i18n /var/log/rpmpkgs kde-i18n-Brazil-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm kde-i18n-British-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm
I notice these are all kde releated, so they aren't installed by default.
I should have confessed that I always upgrade on this SCSI machine, as Fedora doesn't seem to like my Adaptec chip. So it wasn't a clean install, as I may have suggested.
My recollection is that at some point in my youth I was asked during installation to choose between KDE and Gnome, and I chose KDE, so KDE has been installed ever since.
I've just checked on a more standard machine of mine, and I don't in fact have all this foreign stuff: ======================================= [tim@helen ~]$ grep i18n /var/log/rpmpkgs kde-i18n-British-3.3.1-1.noarch.rpm openoffice.org-i18n-1.1.2-10.i386.rpm ======================================= So I had better withdraw my remark.
Actually, it wasn't really a complaint, as I like the idea that I could get everything in Norwegian if I wanted ...