question about (this) maillist(s)

[Ronald Warsow]

hallo

i have some questions how this mail list "management software (mailman ?, ...)" works:

1. why is the timestamp in the mailheader changed ? sometimes ?

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2006-August/msg00496.html

sended at  Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:13:56 +0200 
changed to Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:13:53 +0000

(the mail arrived 1 minute later !)

2. what is the sort order or better on what criterion does the software manage/sort mails to the related subjects ?

sometime i can see that the software "guesses" this relation leading to entries like
...
<Possible follow-ups>
...

what is the technical background ?

hint:
i send mail to the list via evolution by picking the subject and write "re:" or "Re:" in front of it;
in contrast to download the whole list and doing a "Reply to Sender" from the evolution menu.

tips/hints ?

ronald

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 22:04:45 +0000,
  Ronald Warsow  wrote:
> hallo
>
> i have some questions how this mail list "management software (mailman ?, ...)" works:
> why is the timestamp in the mailheader changed ? sometimes ?
>
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2006-August/msg00496.html
>
> sended at  Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:13:56 +0200 
> changed to Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:13:53 +0000

It looks like the mailing list replaces the date header with its own.
The variation in minutes is probably due to clock skew between your host
and the mailing list server (since it says it sent the message before you say
you did). The time zone is changed to GMT which is a fairly normal thing
to do.
> (the mail arrived 1 minute later !)
> what is the sort order or better on what criterion does the software manage/sort mails to the related subjects ?

That depends on your mail client. Different mail clients can sort on all sorts
of things. I find having a threaded view convenient.
> sometime i can see that the software "guesses" this relation leading to entries like
> ...
>
> <Possible follow-ups>
> ...
>
> what is the technical background ?

This might be related to deeply nested threads where there isn't enough
information when viewing just a small amount of a thread to be sure the
messages you can see are all really part of the same thread.
> hint:
> i send mail to the list via evolution by picking the subject and write "re:" or "Re:" in front of it;
> in contrast to download the whole list and doing a "Reply to Sender" from the evolution menu.

That breaks threading. You shouldn't reply to existing messages to start new
threads or send messages that aren't replies but are intended to be.

[Ronald Warsow]

hello bruno

thx 4 reply.

On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 19:01 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 22:04:45 +0000,
>   Ronald Warsow  wrote:
> > hallo
> >
> > i have some questions how this mail list "management software (mailman ?, ...)" works:
> > why is the timestamp in the mailheader changed ? sometimes ?
> >
> > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2006-August/msg00496.html
> >
> > sended at  Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:13:56 +0200 
> > changed to Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:13:53 +0000
>
> It looks like the mailing list replaces the date header with its own.
> The variation in minutes is probably due to clock skew between your host
> and the mailing list server (since it says it sent the message before you say
> you did). The time zone is changed to GMT which is a fairly normal thing
> to do.

but it does it not always !!!
look at this
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2006-August/msg00116.html

time zone is the original (GMT+2)
and yesterday it was changed to GMT+/-0 !!!
>

...
> That breaks threading. You shouldn't reply to existing messages to start new
> threads

yes, yesterday i made a mistake ! (copy/paste-evolution-"crime")
> or send messages that aren't replies but are intended to be.

this last sentence is not complete clear to me.

how do i do a "clean" reply without downloading the hole list into
evolution ???

ronald

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 02:30:51 +0200,
  Ronald Warsow  wrote:
> but it does it not always !!!
> look at this
> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2006-August/msg00116.html
>
> time zone is the original (GMT+2)
> and yesterday it was changed to GMT+/-0 !!!

Unfortunately the archives don't include everything about these messages.
I just checked through what messages I still have from the list and they
look like they have the original date headers. It is hard to say for sure
what happened with you original message without having gotten a copy directly
from you.
> > or send messages that aren't replies but are intended to be.
>
> this last sentence is not complete clear to me.

This was in response to your description of sending a new message, copying
the old subject and adding re: at the start of the subject.
> how do i do a "clean" reply without downloading the hole list into
> evolution ???

I am not sure, but it shouldn't be that hard to find out. There may be some
built in help or you can go read documentation for it. I use mutt myself,
and don't know how to invoke specific commands in evolution. But there is
going to be at least one kind of reply command (and probably two).

[Ronald Warsow]

thx again.

On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 20:49 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
...
> Unfortunately the archives don't include everything about these messages.
> I just checked through what messages I still have from the list and they
> look like they have the original date headers.

sometimes !
that's exactly one of my problems.

...
> > how do i do a "clean" reply without downloading the hole list into
> > evolution ???

with "clean" i mean that i download the *whole* list (respectively all
new mails since my subcription) *into* my mail client (here: evolution)
and do a reply from/on that downloaded mail.

i have done so the last two emails (this one also).
seems that the entry
    <Possible follow-ups>
disappears.
that was my 2cd problem.

i think i temp. will setup a mailman server to look behind that mailman
-"mechanic".

sorry: "Its called Mailman with captial M"
(dedicate to [e-mail], which send me a reply also)

;-)

okay then, i think i got some good hints and it's best stop here now in
this list.

thx.

ronald

[Gerry Tool]

Ronald Warsow wrote:
> ...
> > > how do i do a "clean" reply without downloading the hole list into
> > > evolution ???
>
> with "clean" i mean that i download the *whole* list (respectively all
> new mails since my subcription) *into* my mail client (here: evolution)
> and do a reply from/on that downloaded mail.

Hi Ronald,

If you are _subscribed_ to the mailing list, you should be getting 
individual messages delivered to your e-mail address as they occur on 
the list.  There should be no need to _download_ anything.  A message 
appears in the in-box and one reads it and if interested, replies to it 
with the Reply button on the tool bar.

I am having a hard time understanding how you are using the mailing-list 
in some different way.

Are you _subscribed_ as described on
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list
?

I am currently using Thunderbird, but have used Evolution in exactly the 
way I described.

Gerry

[Ronald Warsow]

hallo gerry

On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 21:44 -0500, Gerry Tool wrote:
...
> If you are _subscribed_ to the mailing list, you should be getting 
> individual messages delivered to your e-mail address as they occur on 
> the list.  There should be no need to _download_ anything.

if you have configured your subscription setting in that way. 
i know this is the default after subscription, but you're able to be
subscribed and to *not* get mails from the list.

see button at end of the page "unsubscribe or edit options"
> A message 
> appears in the in-box and one reads it and if interested, replies to it 
> with the Reply button on the tool bar.
>
> I am having a hard time understanding how you are using the mailing-list 
> in some different way.

i'm reading the list via web and if i find a subject i want to reply to,
etc. i fire up evolution, copy the subject from the webpage, write a Re:
in front of it, send the mail and get an entry "possible follow ups".
> Are you _subscribed_ as described on
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-test-list
> ?
>
> I am currently using Thunderbird, but have used Evolution in exactly the 
> way I described.
>
> Gerry

ronald

[Mike Chambers]

On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 03:04 +0000, Ronald Warsow wrote:
> i'm reading the list via web and if i find a subject i want to reply to,
> etc. i fire up evolution, copy the subject from the webpage, write a Re:
> in front of it, send the mail and get an entry "possible follow ups".

I believe he is subscribed but not getting emails (that option turned
off) and he reads them via the list archives.

I think he is asking if there is a way to reply-to, to a particular
email from the archives so it stays on the subject header and is
threaded and such.

I don't think there is a way to do that unfortunately.  So he would just
have to keep doing it the way he's doing if he must reply to something
that is archived.

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 04:14:13 -0500,
  Mike Chambers  wrote:
> I don't think there is a way to do that unfortunately.  So he would just
> have to keep doing it the way he's doing if he must reply to something
> that is archived.

Most list servers have a way to request a message in the archives be mailed
to you. Though I am not sure if Mailman does that or how to do it if it does.

[Ronald Warsow]

On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 11:32 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 04:14:13 -0500,
>   Mike Chambers  wrote:
> > I don't think there is a way to do that unfortunately.  So he would just
> > have to keep doing it the way he's doing if he must reply to something
> > that is archived.
>
> Most list servers have a way to request a message in the archives be mailed
> to you. Though I am not sure if Mailman does that or how to do it if it does.

yes, this would be a nice feature, would reduce traffic, and AFAIK some
lists act that way.
as i mentioned in one of the previous mails, i will setup a mailman
server to see behind the "mechanic".

one part is left: 
why is the time stamp sometimes, i would like to say, "normalized" to
GMT 0000 and sometimes not ?

but i think there more important topic's on this list here, for instance
if the next kernel will fix my lockdep problem...

i'll jump out now here. okay ?
thx

ronald

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 17:25:26 +0000,
  Ronald Warsow  wrote:
> one part is left: 
> why is the time stamp sometimes, i would like to say, "normalized" to
> GMT 0000 and sometimes not ?

I thought someone suggested a plausible answer to that. Messages dated in
the future have their date headers replaced. If you system's clock is
a bit ahead of the mailman server's, then depending on how long it takes
to transfer your message to the mailman server you may or may not have the
date header replaced.

[Chris Adams]

Once upon a time, Ronald Warsow  said:
> On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 19:01 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > It looks like the mailing list replaces the date header with its own.
> > The variation in minutes is probably due to clock skew between your host
> > and the mailing list server (since it says it sent the message before you say
> > you did). The time zone is changed to GMT which is a fairly normal thing
> > to do.
>
> but it does it not always !!!

A quick guess based on your two recent messages: when the Date: header
is in the future (relative to the mailing list server's clock), the
Date: header is replaced with the server's current time.

One of your messages took a slight bit longer to get to the list server
than the other; by the time it got there, the Date: was valid.

[Ronald Warsow]

On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 21:50 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Ronald Warsow  said:
> > On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 19:01 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > > It looks like the mailing list replaces the date header with its own.
> > > The variation in minutes is probably due to clock skew between your host
> > > and the mailing list server (since it says it sent the message before you say
> > > you did). The time zone is changed to GMT which is a fairly normal thing
> > > to do.
> >
> > but it does it not always !!!
>
> A quick guess based on your two recent messages: when the Date: header
> is in the future (relative to the mailing list server's clock), the
> Date: header is replaced with the server's current time.

not every time !

the difference between the last 2 or 3 last mails to the list *and* the
first one (starting the thread) are that the last are replies out of
evolution (aka the "normal subscription way")

sending emails from germany aka GMT+0200 to a server at GMT-0400 (~east
usa) will always care a date in the future (viewpoint from the server)

but why is the date from the start thread exchanged and the dates from
the last emails not.

*all* these emails are send from a "future" time GMT+0200 ! (server
viewpoint)
> One of your messages took a slight bit longer to get to the list server
> than the other; by the time it got there, the Date: was valid.
>
> -- 
> Chris Adams 
> Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
> I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.

ronald

[Ronald Warsow]

hi all

last message in that "crime"

it is early in the morning here and i want to stop now.

look at the time stamps in this thread (web interface)

starting the thread: 	Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:31:04 +0000
my next message:        Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:30:51 +0200
my next...		Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:34:09 +0200
my next...		Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:04:08 +0000
my next...		Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:31:04 +0000
and this one:		????

obviously there is something wrong...

cu tomorrow - sorry - today !

ronald

Tue Aug 29 05:45:17 CEST 2006

[Ronald Warsow]

sorry my mistake in the first time row !!!

On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 03:46 +0000, Ronald Warsow wrote:
> hi all
>
> last message in that "crime"
>
> it is early in the morning here and i want to stop now.
>
> look at the time stamps in this thread (web interface)
>
> starting the thread: 	Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:31:04 +0000

previous line
to be exchanged with:    Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:04:45 +0000
> my next message:        Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:30:51 +0200
> my next...		Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:34:09 +0200
> my next...		Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:04:08 +0000
> my next...		Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:31:04 +0000

completion		 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:46:53 +0000
> obviously there is something wrong...
>
> cu tomorrow - sorry - today !
>
> ronald
>
> Tue Aug 29 05:45:17 CEST 2006

ronald

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Tue, Aug 29, 2006 at 03:31:04 +0000,
  Ronald Warsow  wrote:
> sending emails from germany aka GMT+0200 to a server at GMT-0400 (~east
> usa) will always care a date in the future (viewpoint from the server)

No, because the server knows about time zones.