criterion change proposal: macOS dual-boot

[Kamil Paral]

Our current macOS (still called OS X) dual boot criterion says:

"The installer must be able to install into free space alongside an
existing OS X installation, install and configure a bootloader that will
boot Fedora."
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria#OS_X_dual_bo...

I suggest renaming  "OS X" to "macOS" in the section title and in the
criterion text. That reflects the name change that Apple did in the past.

I also suggest adding this footnote:
"Footnote: Supported hardware
This criterion only covers Mac devices with an Intel x86_64 processor."

That makes it explicit that we don't support the latest ARM-based M<number>
custom processors, nor the older PowerPC-based devices. I originally wanted
to link to some official Fedora requirements, but we don't seem to have any
(for Macs), so at least a footnote here.

Thoughts?

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Wed, Feb 08, 2023 at 09:55:33AM +0100, Kamil Paral wrote:
> Our current macOS (still called OS X) dual boot criterion says:
>
> "The installer must be able to install into free space alongside an
> existing OS X installation, install and configure a bootloader that will
> boot Fedora."
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria#OS_X_dual_bo...
>
> I suggest renaming  "OS X" to "macOS" in the section title and in the
> criterion text. That reflects the name change that Apple did in the past.
>
> I also suggest adding this footnote:
> "Footnote: Supported hardware
> This criterion only covers Mac devices with an Intel x86_64 processor."
>
> That makes it explicit that we don't support the latest ARM-based M<number>
> custom processors, nor the older PowerPC-based devices. I originally wanted
> to link to some official Fedora requirements, but we don't seem to have any
> (for Macs), so at least a footnote here.
>
> Thoughts?

+1 to those changes, makes sense.

I am not sure 100% of intel macs are supported either however. 
I have a macbook here with the touchbar thing and last I tried it,
fedora will boot, but the keyboard doesn't work at all. That was like a
year or so ago tho, so I should try again. ;)

kevin

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 1:31 PM Kevin Fenzi  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 08, 2023 at 09:55:33AM +0100, Kamil Paral wrote:
> > Our current macOS (still called OS X) dual boot criterion says:
> >
> > "The installer must be able to install into free space alongside an
> > existing OS X installation, install and configure a bootloader that will
> > boot Fedora."
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria#OS_X_dual_bo...
> >
> > I suggest renaming  "OS X" to "macOS" in the section title and in the
> > criterion text. That reflects the name change that Apple did in the past.
> >
> > I also suggest adding this footnote:
> > "Footnote: Supported hardware
> > This criterion only covers Mac devices with an Intel x86_64 processor."
> >
> > That makes it explicit that we don't support the latest ARM-based M<number>
> > custom processors, nor the older PowerPC-based devices. I originally wanted
> > to link to some official Fedora requirements, but we don't seem to have any
> > (for Macs), so at least a footnote here.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> +1 to those changes, makes sense.
>
> I am not sure 100% of intel macs are supported either however.
> I have a macbook here with the touchbar thing and last I tried it,
> fedora will boot, but the keyboard doesn't work at all. That was like a
> year or so ago tho, so I should try again. ;)

There is a patch set for the T2 era of Macs, but I don't know if
anyone has tried to shepherd them upstream yet:
https://github.com/t2linux/linux-t2-patches

(I don't have access to one of this era of Macs, so I don't have quite
the ability to vouch for them.)

--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 1:56 PM Neal Gompa  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 1:31 PM Kevin Fenzi  wrote:
> > On Wed, Feb 08, 2023 at 09:55:33AM +0100, Kamil Paral wrote:
> > > Our current macOS (still called OS X) dual boot criterion says:
> > >
> > > "The installer must be able to install into free space alongside an
> > > existing OS X installation, install and configure a bootloader that will
> > > boot Fedora."
> > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria#OS_X_dual_bo...
> > >
> > > I suggest renaming  "OS X" to "macOS" in the section title and in the
> > > criterion text. That reflects the name change that Apple did in the past.
> > >
> > > I also suggest adding this footnote:
> > > "Footnote: Supported hardware
> > > This criterion only covers Mac devices with an Intel x86_64 processor."
> > >
> > > That makes it explicit that we don't support the latest ARM-based M<number>
> > > custom processors, nor the older PowerPC-based devices. I originally wanted
> > > to link to some official Fedora requirements, but we don't seem to have any
> > > (for Macs), so at least a footnote here.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> >
> > +1 to those changes, makes sense.
> >
> > I am not sure 100% of intel macs are supported either however.
> > I have a macbook here with the touchbar thing and last I tried it,
> > fedora will boot, but the keyboard doesn't work at all. That was like a
> > year or so ago tho, so I should try again. ;)
>
> There is a patch set for the T2 era of Macs, but I don't know if
> anyone has tried to shepherd them upstream yet:
> https://github.com/t2linux/linux-t2-patches
>
> (I don't have access to one of this era of Macs, so I don't have quite
> the ability to vouch for them.)

Well, I spoke too soon, look at that:
https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/[e-mail]/

[Kamil Paral]

On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 7:31 PM Kevin Fenzi  wrote:
> I am not sure 100% of intel macs are supported either however.
> I have a macbook here with the touchbar thing and last I tried it,
> fedora will boot, but the keyboard doesn't work at all. That was like a
> year or so ago tho, so I should try again. ;)

We have exactly the same experience with a Macbook Pro (with the touch bar)
and F37, tested this week. It seems to be related to the T2 Security Chip,
as mentioned in the lkml post linked by Neal.

I believe we'd use the hardware provision [1] if somebody argued the broken
keyboard/touchpad should be a blocker, as long as at least some Macs work.
This proposed change is just to clarify that only Intel-based Macs are
covered by it, and nothing else.

[1]
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Blocker_Bug_FAQ#What_about_hardware_and_local...
?

[Scott Beamer]

On 2/8/2023 12:55 AM, Kamil Paral wrote:
> Our current macOS (still called OS X) dual boot criterion says:
>
> "The installer must be able to install into free space alongside an 
> existing OS X installation, install and configure a bootloader that will 
> boot Fedora."
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria#OS_X_dual_bo... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria#OS_X_dual_boot
>
> I suggest renaming  "OS X" to "macOS" in the section title and in the 
> criterion text. That reflects the name change that Apple did in the past.

How on earth did OS X get in there?  That name went out of existence in 
2016.

[Luna Jernberg]

+1 both makes sense too me

On 2/8/23, Kamil Paral  wrote:
> Our current macOS (still called OS X) dual boot criterion says:
>
> "The installer must be able to install into free space alongside an
> existing OS X installation, install and configure a bootloader that will
> boot Fedora."
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria#OS_X_dual_bo...
>
> I suggest renaming  "OS X" to "macOS" in the section title and in the
> criterion text. That reflects the name change that Apple did in the past.
>
> I also suggest adding this footnote:
> "Footnote: Supported hardware
> This criterion only covers Mac devices with an Intel x86_64 processor."
>
> That makes it explicit that we don't support the latest ARM-based M<number>
> custom processors, nor the older PowerPC-based devices. I originally wanted
> to link to some official Fedora requirements, but we don't seem to have any
> (for Macs), so at least a footnote here.
>
> Thoughts?

[Kamil Paral]

On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:55 AM Kamil Paral  wrote:
> Our current macOS (still called OS X) dual boot criterion says:
>
> "The installer must be able to install into free space alongside an
> existing OS X installation, install and configure a bootloader that will
> boot Fedora."
>
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria#OS_X_dual_bo...
>
> I suggest renaming  "OS X" to "macOS" in the section title and in the
> criterion text. That reflects the name change that Apple did in the past.
>
> I also suggest adding this footnote:
> "Footnote: Supported hardware
> This criterion only covers Mac devices with an Intel x86_64 processor."
>
> That makes it explicit that we don't support the latest ARM-based
> M<number> custom processors, nor the older PowerPC-based devices. I
> originally wanted to link to some official Fedora requirements, but we
> don't seem to have any (for Macs), so at least a footnote here.
>
> Thoughts?

Thanks everyone for feedback, the change is now live:
https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria...

[Luna Jernberg]

(y)

On 2/13/23, Kamil Paral  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:55 AM Kamil Paral  wrote:
> > Our current macOS (still called OS X) dual boot criterion says:
> >
> > "The installer must be able to install into free space alongside an
> > existing OS X installation, install and configure a bootloader that will
> > boot Fedora."
> >
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria#OS_X_dual_bo...
> >
> > I suggest renaming  "OS X" to "macOS" in the section title and in the
> > criterion text. That reflects the name change that Apple did in the past.
> >
> > I also suggest adding this footnote:
> > "Footnote: Supported hardware
> > This criterion only covers Mac devices with an Intel x86_64 processor."
> >
> > That makes it explicit that we don't support the latest ARM-based
> > M<number> custom processors, nor the older PowerPC-based devices. I
> > originally wanted to link to some official Fedora requirements, but we
> > don't seem to have any (for Macs), so at least a footnote here.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> Thanks everyone for feedback, the change is now live:
> https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Fedora_38_Final_Release_Criteria...