Advice sought for translating manpages

[Richard W.M. Jones]

Following on from this posting:

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/trans/2010-April/007357.html

We're proposing to use po4a to create a .pot file for all the manual
pages around libguestfs (some are very long -- 100 pages at least).

I'd like some advice on what transifex can handle.

Can it handle the PO files generated by po4a?

Can it handle a project where there are two .pot files?
(po/libguestfs.pot and new file po-docs/libguestfs-docs.pot)

Here is the patch we're proposing to add to libguestfs upstream:

https://www.redhat.com/archives/libguestfs/2010-September/msg00001.html

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines.  Tiny program with many
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[Ruediger Landmann]

  On 09/03/2010 01:59 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>  I'd like some advice on what transifex can handle.
>
>  Can it handle the PO files generated by po4a? 
Yes -- Transifex doesn't know or care how the PO files were generated.

>  Can it handle a project where there are two .pot files?
>  (po/libguestfs.pot and new file po-docs/libguestfs-docs.pot) 
Yes -- these would be separate components grouped under the one project 
-- for example, take a look at the various PO files that make up 
Publican -- https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/p/publican/

Cheers
Rudi

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Fri, Sep 03, 2010 at 03:27:56AM +1000, Ruediger Landmann wrote:
>   On 09/03/2010 01:59 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>  >I'd like some advice on what transifex can handle.
>  >
>  >Can it handle the PO files generated by po4a?
>  
>  Yes -- Transifex doesn't know or care how the PO files were generated. 
OK, I just mean the actual format generated by po4a is a little
bit different.  Example:

  http://annexia.org/tmp/test.po

I haven't seen those "type:" annotations in any other PO file before.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any
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[Ruediger Landmann]

  On 09/03/2010 03:30 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>  OK, I just mean the actual format generated by po4a is a little
>  bit different.  Example:
>
>     http://annexia.org/tmp/test.po
>
>  I haven't seen those "type:" annotations in any other PO file before.
>
>  Rich.
>  
Since these are just formatted as "translator comments",[0] they should 
pose no problem for Transifex AFAIK. I can't specifically recall seeing 
how Transifex handles this particular type of comment, but it handles 
all other types without problem.

Cheers
Rudi

[0] http://www.gnu.org/software/hello/manual/gettext/PO-Files.html

[Dimitris Glezos]

On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 8:41 PM, Ruediger Landmann <r.landmann(a)redhat.com&gt; wrote:
>   On 09/03/2010 03:30 AM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> >
> > OK, I just mean the actual format generated by po4a is a little
> > bit different.  Example:
> >
> >    http://annexia.org/tmp/test.po
> >
> > I haven't seen those "type:" annotations in any other PO file before.
> >
> > Rich.
> >
>  Since these are just formatted as "translator comments",[0] they should
>  pose no problem for Transifex AFAIK. I can't specifically recall seeing
>  how Transifex handles this particular type of comment, but it handles
>  all other types without problem. 
True.

Additionally, I should mention that Transifex 1.0 (currently in alpha)
does not require files to be in the PO format -- it's format-agnostic.
Converters to Transifex's translation storage engine can be written
very easily, and also strings can be pushed directly over an API.

-d



-- 
Dimitris Glezos

Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution
http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/

[D. Barbier]

On 2010/9/2 Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>  Following on from this posting:
>
>  http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/trans/2010-April/007357.html
>
>  We're proposing to use po4a to create a .pot file for all the manual
>  pages around libguestfs (some are very long -- 100 pages at least).
>
>  I'd like some advice on what transifex can handle.
>
>  Can it handle the PO files generated by po4a? 
[...]

Hello,

I am one of the developers of po4a.  PO files generated by po4a can be
handled by any tool, they are regular PO files.  Please note that the
po4a package shipped in Fedora is quite old,  it would be really nice
to update it, new versions fix many bugs (like the problem you
describe in your patch about the =encoding line).

Denis

[Gianluca Sforna]

On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Denis Barbier <bouzim(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  I am one of the developers of po4a.  PO files generated by po4a can
> be
>  handled by any tool, they are regular PO files.  Please note that the
>  po4a package shipped in Fedora is quite old,  it would be really nice
>  to update it, new versions fix many bugs (like the problem you
>  describe in your patch about the =encoding line). 
Chances are the maintainers will not notice the request in this list.
I suggest spending a minute to report it from:
http://bugz.fedoraproject.org/po4a


-- 
Gianluca Sforna

http://morefedora.blogspot.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Thu, Sep 02, 2010 at 09:46:32PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
>  On 2010/9/2 Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>  > Following on from this posting:
>  >
>  > http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/trans/2010-April/007357.html
>  >
>  > We're proposing to use po4a to create a .pot file for all the manual
>  > pages around libguestfs (some are very long -- 100 pages at least).
>  >
>  > I'd like some advice on what transifex can handle.
>  >
>  > Can it handle the PO files generated by po4a?
>  [...]
>  
>  Hello,
>  
>  I am one of the developers of po4a.  PO files generated by po4a can be
>  handled by any tool, they are regular PO files.  Please note that the
>  po4a package shipped in Fedora is quite old,  it would be really nice
>  to update it, new versions fix many bugs (like the problem you
>  describe in your patch about the =encoding line). 
Yes, overall it certainly seems more sane than intl-tools, xgettext
and friends.

Unless I'm mistaken, it can't completely replace gettext?  (ie.  it
doesn't understand C and _("...") annotations?)

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
New in Fedora 11: Fedora Windows cross-compiler. Compile Windows
programs, test, and build Windows installers. Over 70 libraries supprt'd
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MinGW http://www.annexia.org/fedora_mingw

[D. Barbier]

On 2010/9/4 Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
[...]
>  Unless I'm mistaken, it can't completely replace gettext?
>  (ie.  it
>  doesn't understand C and _("...") annotations?) 
Disclaimer: if we are getting off-topic, feel free to follow up on our
development list
  http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/po4a-devel/

AFAICT we never considered languages already supported by xgettext, we
prefer focusing on areas not covered by xgettext.  And to be honest,
xgettext does a pretty good job.
Given the other messages in this thread, it is likely that you ask
this question in order to have a single POT file.   This is indeed
something you may want to do, but most of the times, POT file for
documentation is much larger, and I agree with Piotr that having two
POT files is a better option then.
So in short, we do not know yet how to best address this issue, but
also never found it to be a real problem.

Denis

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Sat, Sep 04, 2010 at 10:11:34PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote:
>  On 2010/9/4 Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>  [...]
>  > Unless I'm mistaken, it can't completely replace gettext?  (ie.  it
>  > doesn't understand C and _("...") annotations?)
>  
>  Disclaimer: if we are getting off-topic, feel free to follow up on our
>  development list
>    http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/po4a-devel/
>  
>  AFAICT we never considered languages already supported by xgettext, we
>  prefer focusing on areas not covered by xgettext.  And to be honest,
>  xgettext does a pretty good job.
>  Given the other messages in this thread, it is likely that you ask
>  this question in order to have a single POT file.   This is indeed
>  something you may want to do, but most of the times, POT file for
>  documentation is much larger, and I agree with Piotr that having two
>  POT files is a better option then.
>  So in short, we do not know yet how to best address this issue, but
>  also never found it to be a real problem. 
That's fine.  I just meant that po4a is much more sanely usable than
the GNU gettext stuff (that's just so crazy no one wants to touch it),
and if we could replace that with po4a, it'd be even better.  But two
pot files is no problem also.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines.  Tiny program with many
powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top

libguestfs now has two pot files (was: Re: Advice sought for translating manpages)

[Richard W.M. Jones]

We've pushed that patch upstream.  This means that libguestfs now has
two POT files, and therefore needs two components in transifex:

https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/p/libguestfs/

The original file is 'po/libguestfs.pot' and the new file is
'po-docs/libguestfs-docs.pot' (both on the 'master' branch in git).

So I guess to whomever it is that can change the Fedora transifex
configuration, can you add the second component please.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-p2v converts physical machines to virtual machines.  Boot with a
live CD or over the network (PXE) and turn machines into Xen guests.
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libguestfs now has two pot files (was: Re: Advice sought for translating manpages)

[Piotr Drąg]

2010/9/4 Richard W.M. Jones <rjones(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  We've pushed that patch upstream.  This means that libguestfs now
> has
>  two POT files, and therefore needs two components in transifex:
>
>  https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/p/libguestfs/
>
>  The original file is 'po/libguestfs.pot' and the new file is
>  'po-docs/libguestfs-docs.pot' (both on the 'master' branch in git).
>
>  So I guess to whomever it is that can change the Fedora transifex
>  configuration, can you add the second component please.
>  
I've added it now. [1] You can use Bugzilla for any requests from l10n
team. It's product "Fedora Localization", component
"l10n-requests".

I've also noticed an information in the commit description that you
would like to combine these two POT files together in the future. I
don't think this is a good idea because this POT file for docs has
almost 4k strings, and even more because UI and docs translations
always are, and should be, separated.

I would also like to take this opportunity to (yet again) remind you
the fact that submitting translation files by Bugzilla is not
efficient in any terms and try to convince you to use direct commit
option via SSH provided by Transifex. virt-manager and friends use
this for a while and they didn't report any problems so far. You've
got three (sic!) complete translations so far. virt-manager has 16
translations completed in more than 90%.

Anyway, libguestfs is amazing as it is, I would only like it to rock
even more. :)

[1] https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/p/libguestfs/c/master-docs/

-- 
Piotr Drąg
http://raven.pmail.pl/

libguestfs now has two pot files (was: Re: Advice sought for translating manpages)

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Sat, Sep 04, 2010 at 04:28:26PM +0200, Piotr Drąg wrote:
>  2010/9/4 Richard W.M. Jones <rjones(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  > We've pushed that patch upstream.  This means that libguestfs now has
>  > two POT files, and therefore needs two components in transifex:
>  >
>  > https://translate.fedoraproject.org/projects/p/libguestfs/
>  >
>  > The original file is 'po/libguestfs.pot' and the new file is
>  > 'po-docs/libguestfs-docs.pot' (both on the 'master' branch in git).
>  >
>  > So I guess to whomever it is that can change the Fedora transifex
>  > configuration, can you add the second component please.
>  >
>  
>  I've added it now. [1] You can use Bugzilla for any requests from l10n
>  team. It's product "Fedora Localization", component
> "l10n-requests". 
OK, next time :-)

>  I've also noticed an information in the commit description that
> you
>  would like to combine these two POT files together in the future. I
>  don't think this is a good idea because this POT file for docs has
>  almost 4k strings, and even more because UI and docs translations
>  always are, and should be, separated. 
Fair enough, that's a good reason.  Combining them would be a big pain
anyway, so my p.o.v leaving them separate it a Good Thing.

>  I would also like to take this opportunity to (yet again) remind you
>  the fact that submitting translation files by Bugzilla is not
>  efficient in any terms and try to convince you to use direct commit
>  option via SSH provided by Transifex. virt-manager and friends use
>  this for a while and they didn't report any problems so far. You've
>  got three (sic!) complete translations so far. virt-manager has 16
>  translations completed in more than 90%. 
Yes indeed, one day I'm going to set up "option 3".

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N_FAQ#How_do_I_add_a_module_to_Transifex...
"If the module is hosted elsewhere but you don't want to give out ssh
access"

Actually that reminds me to ask Fedora Infrastructure a related
question:

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/infrastructure/2010-September/00...

Thanks for doing the transifex setup and your continuing hard work on
translations.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-top is 'top' for virtual machines.  Tiny program with many
powerful monitoring features, net stats, disk stats, logging, etc.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-top

libguestfs now has two pot files (was: Re: Advice sought for translating manpages)

[Richard W.M. Jones]

On Sat, Sep 04, 2010 at 05:23:54PM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
>  Yes indeed, one day I'm going to set up "option 3".
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=630321

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones
virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any
software inside the virtual machine.  Supports Linux and Windows.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/