Why Fedora ?

[gaurav]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi List ,
~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
, 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
schedule and with no strings attached

I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...

are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
project like ubuntu ?

pl ppl let me know your views :-)

Regards,
Gaurav

- --
"Innovation is not absolutely necessary, but then neither is survival."
- -- Andrew Papageorge
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[Antonio Olivares]

--- gaurav <gauravp(a)hclcomnet.co.in&gt; wrote:

>  
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  Hi List ,
>  ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my
>  time on fedora .
>  I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3
>  year support cycle
>  , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course
>  apt , sysnaptic ,
>  adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and
>  six month release
>  schedule and with no strings attached
>  
>  I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>  
>  are we wasting time On fedora ?? 
>  
I think that we are not wasting time on Fedora,
although at times it might seem that way.  Fedora is a
community driven project that without community
support will go nowhere.  
>  Should we move 100%
>  comunity based
>  project like ubuntu ?
>  
You have every right to switch to Ubuntu or any other
flavor of Linux out there.  Personally,  I use Fedora
because I like it and because of the excellent
community behind it.  This list is wonderful.  Most of
the time, I can solve most of the problems at hand. 
What had given me problems in the past, is now
resolved with Fedora, i.e., finding packages for mp3
support, play dvd's, and other stuff that I enjoy
doing.  
>  
>  pl ppl let me know your views :-)
>  
>  Regards,
>  Gaurav
>  
>  - --
>  "Innovation is not absolutely necessary, but then
>  neither is survival."
>  - -- Andrew Papageorge
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> >  
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begin:vcard
>  fn:Gaurav  P
>  n:P;Gaurav 
>  org:HCL Comnet;Smart Manage
>  adr;dom:;;f/89
>  email;internet:[e-mail]
>  tel;work:350
>  note;quoted-printable:"Innovation is not absolutely
>  necessary, but then neither is survival."=0D=0A=
>  	-- Andrew Papageorge
>  x-mozilla-html:FALSE
>  version:2.1
>  end:vcard
>  
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Why [troll] Fedora ?

[Andy Green]

gaurav wrote:

>  are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  project like ubuntu ? 
You like ubuntu?  Use it, dude!  Why "wasting time" posting to a Fedora
list?

AIUI Debian is where you should be at if you want 100% community-based.

-Andy

[Craig White]

On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 18:02 +0530, gaurav wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  Hi List ,
>  ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
>  I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
>  , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
>  adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
>  schedule and with no strings attached
>  
>  I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>  
>  are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  project like ubuntu ?
>  
>  pl ppl let me know your views :-)
>   
----
as a hobby, do you also yell fire in movie theaters?

Every distro has its own strengths and weaknesses and everyone should
take the time to try out other distro's to see what is out there. If
Ubuntu does what you want, then great, good luck, see ya.

You are wasting your time with posts like the above on lists other than
ubuntu and you are waving a red flag in front of bulls with posts like
this.

Craig


-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

[James Kosin]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160
 
Craig White wrote:

>  On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 18:02 +0530, gaurav wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Hi List , ~ Sometimes I think I am wasting my time
> > on fedora . I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3
> > year support cycle , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of
> > course apt , sysnaptic , adept and rock solid :-) plus cutting
> > pakages and six month release schedule and with no strings
> > attached
> >
> > I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
> >
> > are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity
> > based project like ubuntu ?
> >
> > pl ppl let me know your views :-)
> >
>  ---- as a hobby, do you also yell fire in movie theaters?
>
>  Every distro has its own strengths and weaknesses and everyone
>  should take the time to try out other distro's to see what is out
>  there. If Ubuntu does what you want, then great, good luck, see ya.
>
>
>  You are wasting your time with posts like the above on lists other
>  than ubuntu and you are waving a red flag in front of bulls with
>  posts like this.
>
>  Craig
>
>  
I couldn't agree with this more.....  Though I'd say see ya later.  I
haven't found a community of support as big as Fedora / RedHat.
I've tried some other variants; but always RedHat / Fedora beat
everyone else in usability.

James
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-- 
Scanned by ClamAV - http://www.clamav.net

[Vijay Gill]

>  Hi List ,
>  ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
>  I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
>  , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
>  adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
>  schedule and with no strings attached
>
>  I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>
>  are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  project like ubuntu ?
>
>  pl ppl let me know your views :-)
>
>  Regards,
>  Gaurav 
Hi Gaurav,
     How did you "waste" your time on Fedora? Developing? Improving
installer? Fixing Bugs?

It's all about innovation and choice. I saw the .vcf file attached to
your mail which had a comment "Innovation is not absolutely necessary,
but then neither is survival.". You can easily find people who do not
agree with this. I have been using linux since 1996 (started with
slackware and settled with Redhat/Fedora.)

Currently my PC's run on Mandrake and Fedora. Each distro has it's own
pros. I run Fedora on my a machine which is
firewall+http+smtp+imap+ftp(transfering files to/from my
office)+subversion(revision control system)+dhcp(for lan). It also
runs mythtv which is used for recording tv programs. I use this
machine for encoding recorded programs for burning DVD's. Occasinally
it serves as my development machine also (small linux utilities for
myself or friends). The Mandrake PC is the desk top PC. I find
Mandrake better for desktop and Fedora for server. There is another PC
which is infected with Windows but I have to use it because of Delphi
& .Net thingy which is part of my job.

We chose Fedora just like you choose to use Ubuntu.

Regards from

Vijay Gill

[Les Mikesell]

On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 07:32, gaurav wrote:

>  Hi List ,
>  ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
>  I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
>  , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
>  adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
>  schedule and with no strings attached
>  
>  I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>  
>  are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  project like ubuntu ? 
If you want to take advantage of all the efforts from the
fedora lab rats but don't want to participate (at least with
all of your machines), you might like the Centos project: 
http://www.centos.org.

-- 
  Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

On Fri, Oct 28, 2005 at 06:02:27PM +0530, gaurav wrote:
>  
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  Hi List ,
>  ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
>  I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
>  , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
>  adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
>  schedule and with no strings attached
>  
>  I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>  
>  are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  project like ubuntu ?
>  
>  pl ppl let me know your views :-)
>  
>  Regards,
>  Gaurav 
There have been at least 2 articles on ubantu in the Linux Journal in
recent months and is seems like an ok distribution. But the discussion
about ubantu vs, fedora sounds to me like the argument of Chrysler vs. Ford
(or for some of you Mercedes vs. Volvo, there is a joke in there
somewhere).
I find fedora robust, the fedora community helpful and all in all I am
used to it. I am sure ubantu people are good people also. I ma used to
my fedora and my Volvo so it is part laziness that keeps me from
switching distributions. I get mad at RedHat (aka Fedora) sometimes
for there arbitrary decisions, They will never convince me that eog or
gimp will replace the need for xv, but if I want xv I can install it.

I have a heavy investment in fedora (helping manage 50+ fedora
machines). It is not easy to switch distributions as some people are
willing to do.

So there is the loyalty factor. As I understand it ubantu is based on
Debian. I tried Debian once and I hated it. But maybe with more time I
could love it. Like ubantu you have one CD and then download
everything else. For me the downloading seemed ot be out of control.
Things got downloaded that I neither wanted not could control. But
again with time I am sure I could learn. I just don't have the time.

Bottom line you makes your choice and lives with it.
-------------------------------------------
Aaron Konstam
Computer Science
Trinity University
telephone: [phone]

[Rudolf Kastl]

from a developers point of view it doesent matter much what you use...

if you identify and report/fix bugs _upstream_ you are fixing the
stuff for all distros...

theres no such thing as "distro wars" with experienced linux users and
real open source developers. you seem to be rather new to the world of
linux.

also for me personally fc4 is too stable and thus pretty boring for
someone who likes to be a bit more active with the linux community. ;)
i am personally helping testing rawhide because i like to have a bit
more challange and i love helping to make future versions better.

regards,
rudolf kastl

p.s. end of mail cause i dont want to waste more time with replying ;)
2005/10/28, akonstam(a)trinity.edu <akonstam(a)trinity.edu&gt;:
>  On Fri, Oct 28, 2005 at 06:02:27PM +0530, gaurav wrote:
>  >
>  > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  > Hash: SHA1
>  >
>  > Hi List ,
>  > ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
>  > I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
>  > , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
>  > adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
>  > schedule and with no strings attached
>  >
>  > I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>  >
>  > are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  > project like ubuntu ?
>  >
>  > pl ppl let me know your views :-)
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  > Gaurav
>  There have been at least 2 articles on ubantu in the Linux Journal in
>  recent months and is seems like an ok distribution. But the discussion
>  about ubantu vs, fedora sounds to me like the argument of Chrysler vs. Ford
>  (or for some of you Mercedes vs. Volvo, there is a joke in there
>  somewhere).
>  I find fedora robust, the fedora community helpful and all in all I am
>  used to it. I am sure ubantu people are good people also. I ma used to
>  my fedora and my Volvo so it is part laziness that keeps me from
>  switching distributions. I get mad at RedHat (aka Fedora) sometimes
>  for there arbitrary decisions, They will never convince me that eog or
>  gimp will replace the need for xv, but if I want xv I can install it.
>
>  I have a heavy investment in fedora (helping manage 50+ fedora
>  machines). It is not easy to switch distributions as some people are
>  willing to do.
>
>  So there is the loyalty factor. As I understand it ubantu is based on
>  Debian. I tried Debian once and I hated it. But maybe with more time I
>  could love it. Like ubantu you have one CD and then download
>  everything else. For me the downloading seemed ot be out of control.
>  Things got downloaded that I neither wanted not could control. But
>  again with time I am sure I could learn. I just don't have the time.
>
>  Bottom line you makes your choice and lives with it.
>  -------------------------------------------
>  Aaron Konstam
>  Computer Science
>  Trinity University
>  telephone: [phone]
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>

[Mark Sargent]

Hi All,

as a newb, I'll weigh in here too. I have been using Fedora2/3 for 
1.5yrs or so, and have also started to use CentOS. Thinking about 
ditching CentOS. Why, you may ask.? Well, the Fedora Community is, in my 
opinion, as a newb, 2nd to one. CentOS web forum just takes too damn 
long to respond. This list is A1 and it's what Fedora is all about. Cheers.

Mark Sargent.

[Lars E. Pettersson]

On 2005-10-28 16:26, Mark Sargent wrote:
>  CentOS web forum just takes too damn 
>  long to respond.  
There is a Centos mailing list:
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

Seem to be quite active...

Lars
-- 
Lars E. Pettersson <lars(a)homer.se&gt;
http://www.sm6rpz.se/

[Mike McCarty]

Rudolf Kastl wrote:
>  from a developers point of view it doesent matter much what you
> use... 
 From a developer? Of Linux? Or of Linux software?

I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
stable release. For that reason, IMO, it is unsuitable for
doing stable software development. OTOH, if one is designing
commercial software, and wants a test machine or two set up
the way one projects the world will be when the software is
ready for release, then one probably needs to have something
like Fedora core on those test machines.

>  if you identify and report/fix bugs _upstream_ you are fixing the
>  stuff for all distros... 
For all *RHEL* distros.

>  theres no such thing as "distro wars" with experienced
> linux users and
>  real open source developers. you seem to be rather new to the world of
>  linux. 
Oh yes there are "distro wars". I just don't participate in 'em.

>  also for me personally fc4 is too stable and thus pretty boring for
>  someone who likes to be a bit more active with the linux community. ;)
>  i am personally helping testing rawhide because i like to have a bit
>  more challange and i love helping to make future versions better. 
Please don't top post.

Mike
-- 
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!

[Ralf Corsepius]

On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 10:57 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
>  Rudolf Kastl wrote:
>  > from a developers point of view it doesent matter much what you use...
>  
>   From a developer? Of Linux? Or of Linux software?
>  
>  I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
>  stable release. For that reason, IMO, it is unsuitable for
>  doing stable software development. 
And I have to disagree on this.

To me, Fedora is the right compromise between "stagnation" and "bleeding
edge". It's the right mixture, I need for my work, application
development.

>   OTOH, if one is designing
>  commercial software, and wants a test machine or two set up
>  the way one projects the world will be when the software is
>  ready for release, then one probably needs to have something
>  like Fedora core on those test machines. 
Application developers often work the other way round:
 
They use a distro like Fedora for development, to be prepared for the
"status-quo" at the point in time, when a SW will be ready for release.

>  > if you identify and report/fix bugs _upstream_ you are fixing
> the
>  > stuff for all distros...
>  
>  For all *RHEL* distros. 
... and for Fedora.

>  > theres no such thing as "distro wars" with experienced
> linux users and
>  > real open source developers. you seem to be rather new to the world of
>  > linux.
>  
>  Oh yes there are "distro wars". 
... Rudolf was referring to
"experienced users and real open source
developers" ... I do agree with him.

Ralf
-- 
Registered Linux User #26		http://counter.li.org

[Matthew Saltzman]

On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

>  On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 10:57 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
> > Rudolf Kastl wrote:
>
> >> if you identify and report/fix bugs _upstream_ you are fixing the
> >> stuff for all distros...
> >
> > For all *RHEL* distros.
>  ... and for Fedora. 
The reference to "upstream" refers to getting bugs back to the original 
developers.  Remember, FC and RHEL are primarily packaging software 
developed by others.

So an "upstream" fix to Xorg or GNOME shows up in future releases of Xorg 
or GNOME for all distros that use it.

A stated goal of FC is to push fixes upstream to the developers and to 
stick to the current releases from the upstream developers, rather than to 
load up on ditstro-specific patches.

-- 
 		Matthew Saltzman

Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 28 October 2005 11:57, Mike McCarty wrote:
> Rudolf Kastl wrote:
> > from a developers point of view it doesent matter much what you 
use...
>  From a developer? Of Linux? Or of Linux software?
>
> I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
> stable release. For that reason, IMO, it is unsuitable for
> doing stable software development. OTOH, if one is designing
> commercial software, and wants a test machine or two set up
> the way one projects the world will be when the software is
> ready for release, then one probably needs to have something
> like Fedora core on those test machines. 
And I disagree violently with that premise.  Not everyone has the
luxury of haveing a ready test mule, one that can be broken for
extended periods of time while problems are worked out.  We do use
these machines in our everyday life.

If I can't have a reasonable expectation of doing an upgrade and having
it continue to work for the things that are important to me, then those
cd's I download and burn will never get anywhere near the drive at
reboot time.  The recent 4.0 release and its nightmares is a case in
point. There is absolutely no excuse for such a broken install that
takes a week for a guru to straighten out and a gig of downloads to fix
stuff that should have been fixed in the release before the release was
ever seeded to the servers.

IMO, those sorts of problems are running your test slaves off to other
distros in large numbers.  Yes its mostly ok to use us as lab monkeys,
but to give meaningfull results back, the lab monkey must survive the
experiment.  So lets hope that FC5, if and when, is not released ready
or not on a set schedule, but only after the showstopper stuff from the
rc's is actually fixed.  If that slides the schedule back 2 weeks or a
month, so be it.  We'll get over it.

I see us as the explorers of new ways to do things much more than fixit
guru's.  If the new way works and we like it, then it goes into the
next RHEL release, but either way what we install should work without
segfaults, gross memory leaks and other 'go way' features. X should
just work regardless of which window camp you live in.  At least one
email agent should be mature and stable, likewise at least one browser,
ftp agent etc etc.  Printing should work once configured, and not kill
3/4ths of the kde install just by hovering the mouse pointer over a
printing related item in the kde menu's as was the case for FC2 &
its broken cups.  We actually, heaven forbid, USE these machines in our
everyday life.  To expect less is an insult to us, your beta test base.

> > if you identify and report/fix bugs _upstream_ you are fixing the
> > stuff for all distros...
>
> For all *RHEL* distros.
>
> > theres no such thing as "distro wars" with experienced linux users
and
> > real open source developers. you seem to be rather new to the
> world 
of
> > linux.
>
> Oh yes there are "distro wars". I just don't participate in 'em.
>
> > also for me personally fc4 is too stable and thus pretty boring for
> > someone who likes to be a bit more active with the linux community. 
;)
> > i am personally helping testing rawhide because i like to have a
> bit
> > more challange and i love helping to make future versions better.
>
> Please don't top post.
>
> Mike
> --
> p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> This message made from 100% recycled bits.
> You have found the bank of Larn.
> I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
> I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that! 
-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
99.35% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a WV hillbilly
Free OpenDocument reader/writer/converter download:
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message by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2005 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.

[Josh Coffman]

--- Gene Heskett <gene.heskett(a)verizon.net&gt; wrote:

>  On Friday 28 October 2005 11:57, Mike McCarty wrote:
>  >Rudolf Kastl wrote:
>  >> from a developers point of view it doesent matter
>  much what you
>  use...
>  >
>  > From a developer? Of Linux? Or of Linux software?
>  >
>  >I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora
>  Core is not a
>  >stable release. For that reason, IMO, it is
>  unsuitable for
>  >doing stable software development. OTOH, if one is
>  designing
>  >commercial software, and wants a test machine or
>  two set up
>  >the way one projects the world will be when the
>  software is
>  >ready for release, then one probably needs to have
>  something
>  >like Fedora core on those test machines.
>  
>  And I disagree violently with that premise.  Not
>  everyone has the
>  luxury of haveing a ready test mule, one that can be
>  broken for
>  extended periods of time while problems are worked
>  out.  We do use
>  these machines in our everyday life.
>  
>  If I can't have a reasonable expectation of doing an
>  upgrade and having
>  it continue to work for the things that are
>  important to me, then those
>  cd's I download and burn will never get anywhere
>  near the drive at
>  reboot time.  The recent 4.0 release and its
>  nightmares is a case in
>  point. There is absolutely no excuse for such a
>  broken install that
>  takes a week for a guru to straighten out and a gig
>  of downloads to fix
>  stuff that should have been fixed in the release
>  before the release was
>  ever seeded to the servers. 
[snip] 
>  
>  >
>  >> if you identify and report/fix bugs _upstream_
>  you are fixing the
>  >> stuff for all distros...
>  >
>  >For all *RHEL* distros.
>  >
>  >> theres no such thing as "distro wars" with
>  experienced linux users
>  and
>  >> real open source developers. you seem to be
>  rather new to the world
>  of
>  >> linux.
>  >
>  >Oh yes there are "distro wars". I just don't
>  participate in 'em.
>  >
>  >> also for me personally fc4 is too stable and thus
>  pretty boring for
>  >> someone who likes to be a bit more active with
>  the linux community.
>  ;)
>  >> i am personally helping testing rawhide because i
>  like to have a bit
>  >> more challange and i love helping to make future
>  versions better.
>  >
>  >Please don't top post.
>  >
>  >Mike
>  >--
>  > -- 
>  Cheers, Gene 
Hmm... Well, I'll answer the topic question.

I tried lots of distro's in my search for a windows
replacement this summer. I happened to like Debian and
Apt. Loved SimplyMepis, but it became pretty clear to
me that I was going to have to learn how to make
somethings work. (When I say lots of distros... I
think my laptop is 1/2 pound lighter from the hard
drive grinding...)

I wanted something fast, free, relatively complete but
not really bloated, and optionally bleeding-edge.
Fedora fit the bill for me. And the community has
REALLY helped me to learn and make things work.

Although I'm curious about other new releases, I'd
still probably pick Fedora because:
- it's stable (clean installs)
- easy to update
- good performance (easy to tweak to be really fast)
- free
- great community
- i know it (somewhat)
- learned skills are portable to companies that use
Red Hat.
- on my desktop, it just works. no fuss.



	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com

[David-Paul Niner]

Josh Coffman wrote:

> --- Gene Heskett <gene.heskett(a)verizon.net&gt; wrote:
>
>   
>
> >On Friday 28 October 2005 11:57, Mike McCarty wrote:
> >    
> >
> >>Rudolf Kastl wrote:
> >>      
> >>
> >>>from a developers point of view it doesent matter
> >>>        
> >>>
> >much what you
> >use...
> >    
> >
> >>From a developer? Of Linux? Or of Linux software?
> >>
> >>I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora
> >>      
> >>
> >Core is not a
> >    
> >
> >>stable release. For that reason, IMO, it is
> >>      
> >>
> >unsuitable for
> >    
> >
> >>doing stable software development. OTOH, if one is
> >>      
> >>
> >designing
> >    
> >
> >>commercial software, and wants a test machine or
> >>      
> >>
> >two set up
> >    
> >
> >>the way one projects the world will be when the
> >>      
> >>
> >software is
> >    
> >
> >>ready for release, then one probably needs to have
> >>      
> >>
> >something
> >    
> >
> >>like Fedora core on those test machines.
> >>      
> >>
> >And I disagree violently with that premise.  Not
> >everyone has the
> >luxury of haveing a ready test mule, one that can be
> >broken for
> >extended periods of time while problems are worked
> >out.  We do use
> >these machines in our everyday life.
> >
> >If I can't have a reasonable expectation of doing an
> >upgrade and having
> >it continue to work for the things that are
> >important to me, then those
> >cd's I download and burn will never get anywhere
> >near the drive at
> >reboot time.  The recent 4.0 release and its
> >nightmares is a case in
> >point. There is absolutely no excuse for such a
> >broken install that
> >takes a week for a guru to straighten out and a gig
> >of downloads to fix
> >stuff that should have been fixed in the release
> >before the release was
> >ever seeded to the servers.
> >    
> >
> [snip] 
>   
>
> >>>if you identify and report/fix bugs _upstream_
> >>>        
> >>>
> >you are fixing the
> >    
> >
> >>>stuff for all distros...
> >>>        
> >>>
> >>For all *RHEL* distros.
> >>
> >>      
> >>
> >>>theres no such thing as "distro wars" with
> >>>        
> >>>
> >experienced linux users
> >and
> >    
> >
> >>>real open source developers. you seem to be
> >>>        
> >>>
> >rather new to the world
> >of
> >    
> >
> >>>linux.
> >>>        
> >>>
> >>Oh yes there are "distro wars". I just don't
> >>      
> >>
> >participate in 'em.
> >    
> >
> >>>also for me personally fc4 is too stable and thus
> >>>        
> >>>
> >pretty boring for
> >    
> >
> >>>someone who likes to be a bit more active with
> >>>        
> >>>
> >the linux community.
> >;)
> >    
> >
> >>>i am personally helping testing rawhide because i
> >>>        
> >>>
> >like to have a bit
> >    
> >
> >>>more challange and i love helping to make future
> >>>        
> >>>
> >versions better.
> >    
> >
> >>Please don't top post.
> >>
> >>Mike
> >>--
> >>-- 
> >>      
> >>
> >Cheers, Gene
> >    
> >
>
> Hmm... Well, I'll answer the topic question.
>
> I tried lots of distro's in my search for a windows
> replacement this summer. I happened to like Debian and
> Apt. Loved SimplyMepis, but it became pretty clear to
> me that I was going to have to learn how to make
> somethings work. (When I say lots of distros... I
> think my laptop is 1/2 pound lighter from the hard
> drive grinding...)
>
> I wanted something fast, free, relatively complete but
> not really bloated, and optionally bleeding-edge.
> Fedora fit the bill for me. And the community has
> REALLY helped me to learn and make things work.
>
> Although I'm curious about other new releases, I'd
> still probably pick Fedora because:
> - it's stable (clean installs)
> - easy to update
> - good performance (easy to tweak to be really fast)
> - free
> - great community
> - i know it (somewhat)
> - learned skills are portable to companies that use
> Red Hat.
> - on my desktop, it just works. no fuss.
>
>
>
> 	
> 		
> __________________________________ 
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>   
>  
In summary (if I may): Perhaps the original poster should realize that 
trying to drum up support for a mass exodus away from a particular 
product on a mailing list designed to support said product is 
anti-productive, and not likely to be very effective.

It does seem as those the poster made a few worthwhile comments, 
however, and this community being what it is, I'm certain they will 
given due diligence.

David-Paul Niner, RHCE




-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

[Les Mikesell]

On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 11:39, Gene Heskett wrote:

>  >I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
>  >stable release. For that reason, IMO, it is unsuitable for
>  >doing stable software development. OTOH, if one is designing
>  >commercial software, and wants a test machine or two set up
>  >the way one projects the world will be when the software is
>  >ready for release, then one probably needs to have something
>  >like Fedora core on those test machines.
>  
>  And I disagree violently with that premise.  Not everyone has the
>  luxury of haveing a ready test mule, one that can be broken for
>  extended periods of time while problems are worked out.  We do use
>  these machines in our everyday life. 
Time to pick up a free copy of VMware player at
http://www.vmware.com/ and figure out how to set up that
test mule.  In fact it would be nice if someone made a
downloadable fedora image - the 'browser appliance' VM is
actually ubuntu running firefox.  Of course that doesn't
really work out all the kernel and device driver options.

>  If I can't have a reasonable expectation of doing an upgrade and
> having
>  it continue to work for the things that are important to me, then those
>  cd's I download and burn will never get anywhere near the drive at
>  reboot time. 
Fedora has never promised that a version level upgrade will work. For
machines where that and the fedora release schedule causes a problem
you might like RHEL or Centos better.  They don't promise that an
upgrade will work either, but you don't have to do it so often.

>  The recent 4.0 release and its nightmares is a case in
>  point. There is absolutely no excuse for such a broken install that
>  takes a week for a guru to straighten out and a gig of downloads to fix
>  stuff that should have been fixed in the release before the release was
>  ever seeded to the servers. 
They can't get fixed until someone reports the bugs. 

>  I see us as the explorers of new ways to do things much more than
> fixit
>  guru's. 
You can always tell the pioneers by the arrows sticking out of their
backs...  The fixit guru's can only do their job after someone reports
where the arrows came from.

-- 
  Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

[Timothy Murphy]

Mike McCarty wrote:

>  I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
>  stable release. 
What exactly does that mean?

In my experience, not only is Fedora stable,
but so is every Linux distribution I have tried in recent years,
as also are all recent versions of Windows -
assuming that by "stable" you mean
you do not get the "blue screen of death" or equivalent.



-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: [phone]
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

[Benjamin Franz]

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Timothy Murphy wrote:

>  Mike McCarty wrote:
>
> > I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
> > stable release.
>
>  What exactly does that mean?
>
>  In my experience, not only is Fedora stable,
>  but so is every Linux distribution I have tried in recent years,
>  as also are all recent versions of Windows -
>  assuming that by "stable" you mean
>  you do not get the "blue screen of death" or equivalent. 
You mean like the recent update to Xorg that rendered many machines 
completely borken unless you are enough of a system expert to manage a 
forced boot to run level 3, locating the old Xorg packages in the yum 
cache and manually force a '--oldpackage' install with rpm from the 
command line?

Or perhaps the much too frequent updates to SELinux that have been known 
to break machines as well (leading to many people disabling SELinux to 
avoid having their systems rendered unusable randomly by system updates).

That kind of 'equivalent'?

Fedora is *NOT* stable.

You want stable, either buy RHEL or migrate to a different distribution 
like CentOS, SUSE or Ubuntu.  I *am* a reasonable expert in administering 
Linux boxes (I've been running Linux systems since the kernels had 0.9x 
versions), and Fedora still bites me hard from time to time.

-- 
Benjamin Franz

The designer of a new kind of system must participate fully in the implementation.

                                                          - Donald E. Knuth

[John Wendel]

Benjamin Franz wrote:
>  On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>  
> > Mike McCarty wrote:
> >
> >> I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
> >> stable release.
> >
> >
> > What exactly does that mean?
> >
> > In my experience, not only is Fedora stable,
> > but so is every Linux distribution I have tried in recent years,
> > as also are all recent versions of Windows -
> > assuming that by "stable" you mean
> > you do not get the "blue screen of death" or equivalent.
>  
>  
>  You mean like the recent update to Xorg that rendered many machines 
>  completely borken unless you are enough of a system expert to manage a 
>  forced boot to run level 3, locating the old Xorg packages in the yum 
>  cache and manually force a '--oldpackage' install with rpm from the 
>  command line?
>  
>  Or perhaps the much too frequent updates to SELinux that have been known 
>  to break machines as well (leading to many people disabling SELinux to 
>  avoid having their systems rendered unusable randomly by system updates).
>  
>  That kind of 'equivalent'?
>  
>  Fedora is *NOT* stable.
>  
>  You want stable, either buy RHEL or migrate to a different distribution 
>  like CentOS, SUSE or Ubuntu.  I *am* a reasonable expert in 
>  administering Linux boxes (I've been running Linux systems since the 
>  kernels had 0.9x versions), and Fedora still bites me hard from time to 
>  time.
>   

I have a perfectly stable FC3 installation. I always boot into run 
level 3, though I do use X. I don't apply updates until the shouting 
dies down on this list. And I don't use SELinux (I'm on a corporate 
network behind multiple firewalls). In fact, these boxes are much more 
stable than our RHEL3 cluster which suffers from bad third party software.

But in general, I agree with your comments about Fedora.

John

[Vikram Goyal]

-----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin Franz <snowhare(a)nihongo.org&gt;
Sent: Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 02:23:28PM -0800
To For users of Fedora Core releases
Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?


>  On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>  
>  >Mike McCarty wrote:
>  >
>  >>I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
>  >>stable release.
>  >
>  >What exactly does that mean?
>  > 
<snip>
>  You want stable, either buy RHEL or migrate to a different
> distribution 
>  like CentOS, SUSE or Ubuntu.  I *am* a reasonable expert in administering 
>  Linux boxes (I've been running Linux systems since the kernels had 0.9x 
>  versions), and Fedora still bites me hard from time to time.
>   
I second that. I have been using redhat linux since maybe ver 4 or
something. At ver 8 redhat distribution had matured to the point that I
had thought, Ok, now it'll take off in a grand manner. Most of the
general and mundane creases had been removed, the applications'
integration was at its best and the whole system had become smooth and a
good experience.

Then came fedora with its bag of problems. Most of the users like me
thought , ok, maybe in one or two release it will also reach the same
level of comfort as redhat 8, 9. But that never happened. Rather the
most inoovative applications integrations were done away with odd
desktop user interface.

One good example is file browser. In 8,9 ver one could do almost all
acts in the same browser window. There was preferences tab with all the
nitty-gritty settings which a user might want to tweak. The comfort
level was great. Then came nautilus. File browser was put in the
system-tools. Its preferences tab removed. Now for each setting one has
to click Desktop -> Preferences -> the particular preference, which in
my opinion sucks. This is only one example, and there are numerous. Old
users know and can pin point such things. But I think they just took the
whole thing in their stride and since were more proficient in using
linux, ithey just side stepped these problems with changes in their
usage habits.

The point I want to make is that we have gone into a cycle of some level
of applications integration, then some quirk destroys that integration
and a new interface is introduces, some new policies render quite few
applications unfit for the next release and we are back to some earlier
point of integration where apps don't interact well with each other or
new quirks render them almost useless
The users unlearn and then try to relearn the system usage which sucks
the interest and resources of people.

-- 
vikram...
         ||||||||
         ||||||||
^^'''''^^||root||^^^'''''''^^
        // \\   ))
       //(( \\// \\
      // /\\ ||   \\
     || / )) ((    \\
-- 
Always leave room to add an explanation if it doesn't work out.
-- 
 o
~|~
 =
Registered Linux User #285795

[bill perkins]

Vikram Goyal wrote:
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Benjamin Franz <snowhare(a)nihongo.org&gt;
>  Sent: Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 02:23:28PM -0800
>  To For users of Fedora Core releases
>  Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?
>  
>  
>  
> >On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Mike McCarty wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
> >>>stable release.
> >>
> >>What exactly does that mean?
> >>
>  
>  <snip>
>  
> >You want stable, either buy RHEL or migrate to a different distribution 
> >like CentOS, SUSE or Ubuntu.  I *am* a reasonable expert in administering 
> >Linux boxes (I've been running Linux systems since the kernels had 0.9x 
> >versions), and Fedora still bites me hard from time to time.
> >
>  
>  
>  I second that. I have been using redhat linux since maybe ver 4 or
>  something. At ver 8 redhat distribution had matured to the point that I
>  had thought, Ok, now it'll take off in a grand manner. Most of the
>  general and mundane creases had been removed, the applications'
>  integration was at its best and the whole system had become smooth and a
>  good experience.
>  
>  Then came fedora with its bag of problems. Most of the users like me
>  thought , ok, maybe in one or two release it will also reach the same
>  level of comfort as redhat 8, 9. But that never happened. Rather the
>  most inoovative applications integrations were done away with odd
>  desktop user interface.
>  
>  One good example is file browser. In 8,9 ver one could do almost all
>  acts in the same browser window. There was preferences tab with all the
>  nitty-gritty settings which a user might want to tweak. The comfort
>  level was great. Then came nautilus. File browser was put in the
>  system-tools. Its preferences tab removed. Now for each setting one has
>  to click Desktop -> Preferences -> the particular preference, which in
>  my opinion sucks. This is only one example, and there are numerous. Old
>  users know and can pin point such things. But I think they just took the
>  whole thing in their stride and since were more proficient in using
>  linux, ithey just side stepped these problems with changes in their
>  usage habits.
>  
>  The point I want to make is that we have gone into a cycle of some level
>  of applications integration, then some quirk destroys that integration
>  and a new interface is introduces, some new policies render quite few
>  applications unfit for the next release and we are back to some earlier
>  point of integration where apps don't interact well with each other or
>  new quirks render them almost useless
>  The users unlearn and then try to relearn the system usage which sucks
>  the interest and resources of people.
>  
>   
Wow, I didn't realize there were all these issues; I've been using FC4 
since September, maybe I've gotten lucky with my 1GHz Pentium III. 
Anyway, my understanding is that Fedora is more of a "bleeding edge" 
distro, a developer's distro, as opposed to a "production" distro, like 
Slackware, RH Enterprise, or any of the *BSDs (yes, I've used them all 
at one time or another.) Point being, if Fedora works on your system(s), 
by all means, use it. If you can take the time to fix what breaks, more 
power to you. Linux is about _choice_- you don't have to do all the 
upgrades all the time, staying on the bleeding edge; you can "freeze" 
the system, except for security updates, you can use a file manager 
other than Nautilus, and you can use a desktop different than Gnome 
(which I happen to like well enough, I also like Windowmaker.) Just my 
$0.02...

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The two most common things in the	| Bill Perkins
  universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity."	| perk(a)iag.net
					| programmer-at-large
		F. Zappa		| ALL assembly languages done here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Vikram Goyal]

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Perkins <perk(a)iag.net&gt;
Sent: Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 12:33:39AM -0500
To For users of Fedora Core releases
Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?


>  Vikram Goyal wrote:
>  >-----Original Message-----
>  >From: Benjamin Franz <snowhare(a)nihongo.org&gt;
>  >Sent: Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 02:23:28PM -0800
>  >To For users of Fedora Core releases
>  >Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >>On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>>Mike McCarty wrote:
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>>I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
>  >>>>stable release.
>  >>>
>  >>>What exactly does that mean?
>  >>>
>  >
>  ><snip>
>  >
>  >>You want stable, either buy RHEL or migrate to a different distribution 
>  >>like CentOS, SUSE or Ubuntu.  I *am* a reasonable expert in administering 
>  >>Linux boxes (I've been running Linux systems since the kernels had 0.9x 
>  >>versions), and Fedora still bites me hard from time to time.
>  >>
>  >
>  >
>  >I second that. I have been using redhat linux since maybe ver 4 or
>  >something. At ver 8 redhat distribution had matured to the point that I
>  >had thought, Ok, now it'll take off in a grand manner. Most of the
>  >general and mundane creases had been removed, the applications'
>  >integration was at its best and the whole system had become smooth and a
>  >good experience.
>  >
>  >Then came fedora with its bag of problems. Most of the users like me
>  >thought , ok, maybe in one or two release it will also reach the same
>  >level of comfort as redhat 8, 9. But that never happened. Rather the
>  >most inoovative applications integrations were done away with odd
>  >desktop user interface.
>  >
>  >One good example is file browser. In 8,9 ver one could do almost all
>  >acts in the same browser window. There was preferences tab with all the
>  >nitty-gritty settings which a user might want to tweak. The comfort
>  >level was great. Then came nautilus. File browser was put in the
>  >system-tools. Its preferences tab removed. Now for each setting one has
>  >to click Desktop -> Preferences -> the particular preference, which in
>  >my opinion sucks. This is only one example, and there are numerous. Old
>  >users know and can pin point such things. But I think they just took the
>  >whole thing in their stride and since were more proficient in using
>  >linux, ithey just side stepped these problems with changes in their
>  >usage habits.
>  >
>  >The point I want to make is that we have gone into a cycle of some level
>  >of applications integration, then some quirk destroys that integration
>  >and a new interface is introduces, some new policies render quite few
>  >applications unfit for the next release and we are back to some earlier
>  >point of integration where apps don't interact well with each other or
>  >new quirks render them almost useless
>  >The users unlearn and then try to relearn the system usage which sucks
>  >the interest and resources of people.
>  >
>  >
>  
>  Wow, I didn't realize there were all these issues; I've been using FC4 
>  since September, maybe I've gotten lucky with my 1GHz Pentium III. 
>  Anyway, my understanding is that Fedora is more of a "bleeding edge" 
>  distro, a developer's distro, as opposed to a "production" distro, like 
>  Slackware, RH Enterprise, or any of the *BSDs (yes, I've used them all 
>  at one time or another.) 
I don't think so. Bleeding edge software is a diff beast and a normal
user wouldn't be using it at all. To test what I mean, try rpms from
bleeding releases.

There's no desktop distro, developers distro etc in linux world. If you
want to develop something, install the devel rpms.  That's all.

>  Point being, if Fedora works on your system(s), 
>  by all means, use it. 
Here the point is not if it works, but how it worked before than the
present. There's a frequent break in the continuity of software in terms
of options and integration, where it was not necessary or could be
cicumvented.

>  If you can take the time to fix what breaks, more 
>  power to you. 
It's not possible for anyone to be able to fix everything. Open source
empowers one to be able to tweak something but does'nt necessarily means
every one can do it.

>  Linux is about _choice_- you don't have to do all the 
>  upgrades all the time, 
But one has to upgrade the distro ver or not OR shall one stick with the
distro version one liked at aparticular point of time forever.

>  staying on the bleeding edge; you can "freeze" 
>  the system, except for security updates, you can use a file manager 
>  other than Nautilus, 
The point I made about nautilus was in context to applications being
stripped of good usable options in the previous releases to some strange
abnoxious way of doing the same things, even if takes 10 mouse-clicks to
achieve the same action, which took 3 before.

As far as using apps other than the mainstream apps is another headache,
since not much upgradation exists for them. There's also fear of them
getting obsoleted. Rather we have expierienced good stable apps getting
obsoleted and replaced by stripped down versions of same. One good
example is metacity, which replaced sawmill or sawfish window manager in
gnome.

>  and you can use a desktop different than Gnome 
>  (which I happen to like well enough, I also like Windowmaker.) Just my 
>  $0.02...
>   
Of course one can use other desktops does not means one wants to,
especially when one has got used to it. You will know what I mean over
an extended period of time, when you go in cycle of unlearn and relearn
to do the same mundane desktop chores which you had mastered or got used
to in previous releases. And I tell you , it sucks one of interest,
energy and fills one with frustration.
My Rs0.002...
-- 
vikram...
         ||||||||
         ||||||||
^^'''''^^||root||^^^'''''''^^
        // \\   ))
       //(( \\// \\
      // /\\ ||   \\
     || / )) ((    \\
-- 
Old Mother Hubbard lived in a shoe,
She had so many children,
She didn't know what to do.
So she moved to Atlanta.
-- 
 *
~|~
 =
Registered Linux User #285795

[David-Paul Niner]

Vikram Goyal wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Perkins <perk(a)iag.net&gt;
> Sent: Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 12:33:39AM -0500
> To For users of Fedora Core releases
> Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?
>
>
>   
>
> >Vikram Goyal wrote:
> >    
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Benjamin Franz <snowhare(a)nihongo.org&gt;
> >>Sent: Tue, Nov 01, 2005 at 02:23:28PM -0800
> >>To For users of Fedora Core releases
> >>Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>      
> >>
> >>>On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Timothy Murphy wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>        
> >>>
> >>>>Mike McCarty wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>          
> >>>>
> >>>>>I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
> >>>>>stable release.
> >>>>>            
> >>>>>
> >>>>What exactly does that mean?
> >>>>
> >>>>          
> >>>>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>      
> >>
> >>>You want stable, either buy RHEL or migrate to a different distribution 
> >>>like CentOS, SUSE or Ubuntu.  I *am* a reasonable expert in administering 
> >>>Linux boxes (I've been running Linux systems since the kernels had 0.9x 
> >>>versions), and Fedora still bites me hard from time to time.
> >>>
> >>>        
> >>>
> >>I second that. I have been using redhat linux since maybe ver 4 or
> >>something. At ver 8 redhat distribution had matured to the point that I
> >>had thought, Ok, now it'll take off in a grand manner. Most of the
> >>general and mundane creases had been removed, the applications'
> >>integration was at its best and the whole system had become smooth and a
> >>good experience.
> >>
> >>Then came fedora with its bag of problems. Most of the users like me
> >>thought , ok, maybe in one or two release it will also reach the same
> >>level of comfort as redhat 8, 9. But that never happened. Rather the
> >>most inoovative applications integrations were done away with odd
> >>desktop user interface.
> >>
> >>One good example is file browser. In 8,9 ver one could do almost all
> >>acts in the same browser window. There was preferences tab with all the
> >>nitty-gritty settings which a user might want to tweak. The comfort
> >>level was great. Then came nautilus. File browser was put in the
> >>system-tools. Its preferences tab removed. Now for each setting one has
> >>to click Desktop -> Preferences -> the particular preference, which in
> >>my opinion sucks. This is only one example, and there are numerous. Old
> >>users know and can pin point such things. But I think they just took the
> >>whole thing in their stride and since were more proficient in using
> >>linux, ithey just side stepped these problems with changes in their
> >>usage habits.
> >>
> >>The point I want to make is that we have gone into a cycle of some level
> >>of applications integration, then some quirk destroys that integration
> >>and a new interface is introduces, some new policies render quite few
> >>applications unfit for the next release and we are back to some earlier
> >>point of integration where apps don't interact well with each other or
> >>new quirks render them almost useless
> >>The users unlearn and then try to relearn the system usage which sucks
> >>the interest and resources of people.
> >>
> >>
> >>      
> >>
> >Wow, I didn't realize there were all these issues; I've been using FC4 
> >since September, maybe I've gotten lucky with my 1GHz Pentium III. 
> >Anyway, my understanding is that Fedora is more of a "bleeding edge" 
> >distro, a developer's distro, as opposed to a "production" distro, like
>
> >Slackware, RH Enterprise, or any of the *BSDs (yes, I've used them all 
> >at one time or another.)
> >    
> >
>
> I don't think so. Bleeding edge software is a diff beast and a normal
> user wouldn't be using it at all. To test what I mean, try rpms from
> bleeding releases.
>
> There's no desktop distro, developers distro etc in linux world. If you
> want to develop something, install the devel rpms.  That's all.
>
>   
>
> >Point being, if Fedora works on your system(s), 
> >by all means, use it.
> >    
> >
>
> Here the point is not if it works, but how it worked before than the
> present. There's a frequent break in the continuity of software in terms
> of options and integration, where it was not necessary or could be
> cicumvented.
>
>   
>
> >If you can take the time to fix what breaks, more 
> >power to you.
> >    
> >
>
> It's not possible for anyone to be able to fix everything. Open source
> empowers one to be able to tweak something but does'nt necessarily means
> every one can do it.
>
>   
>
> >Linux is about _choice_- you don't have to do all the 
> >upgrades all the time,
> >    
> >
>
> But one has to upgrade the distro ver or not OR shall one stick with the
> distro version one liked at aparticular point of time forever.
>
>   
>
> >staying on the bleeding edge; you can "freeze" 
> >the system, except for security updates, you can use a file manager 
> >other than Nautilus,
> >    
> >
>
> The point I made about nautilus was in context to applications being
> stripped of good usable options in the previous releases to some strange
> abnoxious way of doing the same things, even if takes 10 mouse-clicks to
> achieve the same action, which took 3 before.
>
> As far as using apps other than the mainstream apps is another headache,
> since not much upgradation exists for them. There's also fear of them
> getting obsoleted. Rather we have expierienced good stable apps getting
> obsoleted and replaced by stripped down versions of same. One good
> example is metacity, which replaced sawmill or sawfish window manager in
> gnome.
>
>   
>
> >and you can use a desktop different than Gnome 
> >(which I happen to like well enough, I also like Windowmaker.) Just my 
> >$0.02...
> >
> >    
> >
>
> Of course one can use other desktops does not means one wants to,
> especially when one has got used to it. You will know what I mean over
> an extended period of time, when you go in cycle of unlearn and relearn
> to do the same mundane desktop chores which you had mastered or got used
> to in previous releases. And I tell you , it sucks one of interest,
> energy and fills one with frustration.
> My Rs0.002...
>   
>  
Why post messages on a support list about the usefulness of a product 
that said list is designed to support?

Do you honestly expect anyone to reply with "You know what?  You're 
right.   Fedora is of no use to me and I'm going to switch distros 
because you don't care for it.   Thank you very much."?

What, precisely, are you trying to accomplish?

Curious,
David-Paul Niner

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

[Vikram Goyal]

-----Original Message-----
From: David-Paul Niner <dpniner(a)dpniner.net&gt;
Sent: Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 09:45:40AM -0500
To For users of Fedora Core releases
Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?


>  Vikram Goyal wrote:
>   
>  Why post messages on a support list about the usefulness of a product
>
>  that said list is designed to support?
>  
Where else?
 
>  Do you honestly expect anyone to reply with "You know what? 
> You're 
>  right.   Fedora is of no use to me and I'm going to switch distros 
>  because you don't care for it.   Thank you very much."?
>  
>  What, precisely, are you trying to accomplish?
>  
>  Curious,
>  David-Paul Niner
>   
Seriously I didn't understand, what you are trying to convey???
Maybe my lack of intellect;)

-- 
vikram...
         ||||||||
         ||||||||
^^'''''^^||root||^^^'''''''^^
        // \\   ))
       //(( \\// \\
      // /\\ ||   \\
     || / )) ((    \\
-- 
A visit to a strange place will bring fresh work.
-- 
 ~
~|~
 =
Registered Linux User #285795

[Rahul Sundaram]

Vikram Goyal wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David-Paul Niner <dpniner(a)dpniner.net&gt;
> Sent: Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 09:45:40AM -0500
> To For users of Fedora Core releases
> Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?
>
>
>   
>
> >Vikram Goyal wrote:
> >
> >    
> >
>
>   
>
> >Why post messages on a support list about the usefulness of a product 
> >that said list is designed to support?
> >
> >    
> >
>
> Where else?
>   
>  
Depends on the nature of the message. If its a query or a rant, then 
this list is fine. If there is a specific mailing list then that's the 
more appropriate place. If its a bug report or feature request, 
bugzilla. If its a discussion about development, fedora-devel list might 
be better

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate

regards
Rahul

[David-Paul Niner]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

>  Vikram Goyal wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David-Paul Niner <dpniner(a)dpniner.net&gt;
> > Sent: Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 09:45:40AM -0500
> > To For users of Fedora Core releases
> > Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >> Vikram Goyal wrote:
> >>
> >>   
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >> Why post messages on a support list about the usefulness of a 
> >> product that said list is designed to support?
> >>
> >>   
> >
> >
> > Where else?
> >  
> >
>  Depends on the nature of the message. If its a query or a rant, then 
>  this list is fine. If there is a specific mailing list then that's the 
>  more appropriate place. If its a bug report or feature request, 
>  bugzilla. If its a discussion about development, fedora-devel list 
>  might be better
>
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate
>
>  regards
>  Rahul
>  
Perhaps if I'd rephrased the sentence a bit to read as follows:

Why post messages on the support list with phrases such as

<quote>

	are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
	project like ubuntu ?


</quote>

Of course if I hadn't juxtapositioned my response, the context probably 
wouldn't be so muddled.  :-p

David-Paul Niner





-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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believed to be clean.

[Derek Martin]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 09:45:40AM -0500, David-Paul Niner wrote:
>  Vikram Goyal wrote:
>  
>  >-----Original Message-----
>  >From: Bill Perkins <perk(a)iag.net&gt;
>  >Sent: Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 12:33:39AM -0500
>  >To For users of Fedora Core releases
>  >Subject: Re: Why Fedora ? 
[pages and pages of re-posted message snipped]

Geez people, can't you trim your replies a little so we don't have
to wade through pages of crap we've already read to get to your point?
If we're interested in the thread, we've already read the previous
messages...  Just quote enough so that we know what you're referring
to.

>  Why post messages on a support list about the usefulness of a product
>
>  that said list is designed to support? 
This is community-developed software...  The community's opinion of
the software matters.  If there's something that you think sucks in
Fedora, this is as good a place as any to ask why it sucks and whether
or not anything can be done about it.

Whether posed as a question or not, the community needs to be
accepting of criticism, in order to make the software better.  When
people rant, it's because they're frustrated.  Their rants should be
taken in that light, and should be seen as an opportunity for
improvement, of which there remain many in the free software world.

>  Do you honestly expect anyone to reply with "You know what? 
> You're 
>  right.   Fedora is of no use to me and I'm going to switch distros 
>  because you don't care for it.   Thank you very much."?
>
>  What, precisely, are you trying to accomplish? 
It is really not necessary to be so rude...  Rather than be insulting,
why don't you try to offer some constructive explanation, or provide
some alternative ways to do what is being complained about.


-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

> This is community-developed software...  The community's opinion
> of
> the software matters.  If there's something that you think sucks in
> Fedora, this is as good a place as any to ask why it sucks and whether
> or not anything can be done about it.
>   
>  
Or even better get involved. The community can do more than be 
consumers. They can actually improve things. 

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HelpWanted

regards
Rahul

[Derek Martin]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 10:08:20PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  >This is community-developed software...  The community's
> opinion of
>  >the software matters.  If there's something that you think sucks in
>  >Fedora, this is as good a place as any to ask why it sucks and whether
>  >or not anything can be done about it.
>  >
>  Or even better get involved. The community can do more than be 
>  consumers. They can actually improve things.  
Not if they don't know how to write code, and don't want to learn...

Not everyone who uses Linux is a programmer, and not everyone should
be.

Thanks for trimming your reply.

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

> Not if they don't know how to write code, and don't want to
> learn...
>
> Not everyone who uses Linux is a programmer, and not everyone should
> be.
>
> Thanks for trimming your reply.
>
>   
>  
Did you actually read the link?. It shows various ways the community can 
get involved *without* writing a single line of code.

regards
Rahul

[Derek Martin]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 11:01:41PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Hi
>  
>  >Not if they don't know how to write code, and don't want to learn...
>  >
>  >Not everyone who uses Linux is a programmer, and not everyone should
>  >be.
>  >
>  >Thanks for trimming your reply.
>  >
>  > 
>  Did you actually read the link?. It shows various ways the community can 
>  get involved *without* writing a single line of code. 
No of course I didn't.  ;-)  It never ceases to amaze me that people
assume others will read every link that they include in mailing list
posts without also providing any explanation as to what the link
actually is...  Who has time for that?

But providing feedback on mailing lists is also a way to get involved
without writing code.

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Robert Locke]

On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 12:04 -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
>  On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 10:08:20PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  > >This is community-developed software...  The community's opinion of
>  > >the software matters.  If there's something that you think sucks in
>  > >Fedora, this is as good a place as any to ask why it sucks and whether
>  > >or not anything can be done about it.
>  > >
>  > Or even better get involved. The community can do more than be 
>  > consumers. They can actually improve things. 
>  
>  Not if they don't know how to write code, and don't want to learn...
>  
>  Not everyone who uses Linux is a programmer, and not everyone should
>  be.
>  
>  Thanks for trimming your reply. 
I've been trying to ignore this thread, but Derek,

Next time try clicking on the link that Rahul provided (before
assuming), which just to repeat was:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/HelpWanted

You might notice that the "community" needs help with more than just
programming....  Fact of the matter is that most of the programming
issues are being addressed, shy of the developers having their code
tested on a wider array of hardware/environments.  The bigger problem
areas are support (separating actual bugs from misconfiguration) and
feedback (documenting the bugs for the developers to then fix)....  I
don't think this project is lacking in coding resources.....

Take a look at the above page.  From your other posts, I'm guessing that
you have some talent that would fit quite nicely in a couple of those
areas....

--Rob

[Derek Martin]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 12:33:48PM -0500, Robert Locke wrote:
>  I've been trying to ignore this thread, but Derek,
>  
>  Next time try clicking on the link that Rahul provided (before
>  assuming), which just to repeat was: 
Well, I don't mean to be rude, but simply put, no.  If one were to
follow every link that someone posted in a thread they were
participating in, they would never leave the computer.  There would be
time for nothing else in the day.

If you want people to read links that you post, it would be helpful if
you provided some clue as to what information is there, and/or why you
want them to look at it.  If you don't want to do that, fine... but
you shouldn't expect that people will necessarily follow your links
either.  

It doesn't take a lot of effort...  if Rahul had only said, "Here's a
list of ways you can get involved without writing code:"  That would
have been enough.  And, having been a member of the free software
community for a very long time, that would have told me:

  - enough to avoid making irrelevant comments, even without looking
    at the link
  - that I don't need to look at the link, because I'm already well
    aware of the many ways to contribute.

>  You might notice that the "community" needs help with more
> than just
>  programming....   
Of course I'm well aware of that.  But I think providing feedback on a
community website is worthwhile.  Perhaps it's not as useful as
submitting a bug report, but at least some members of the development
community need to be tuned into what the user community is thinking
and saying, so somebody should be monitoring the user's lists.  And
I'm sure they are.  ;-)

>  Take a look at the above page.  From your other posts, I'm
> guessing
>  that you have some talent that would fit quite nicely in a couple of
>  those areas.... 
Thanks for the nice complement.  :)

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Tony Nelson]

At 12:55 PM -0500 11/2/05, Derek Martin wrote:
> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;
> 	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WkHPBKJ2pKcVUM5H"
> Content-Disposition: inline
>
> On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 12:33:48PM -0500, Robert Locke wrote:
> > I've been trying to ignore this thread, but Derek,
> >
> > Next time try clicking on the link that Rahul provided (before
> > assuming), which just to repeat was:
>
> Well, I don't mean to be rude, but simply put, no.  If one were to
> follow every link that someone posted in a thread they were
> participating in, they would never leave the computer.  There would be
> time for nothing else in the day. 
Now that you've made foolish posts on this twice, I will tell you /do/
/not/ /respond/ /to/ /posts/ /you/ /haven't/ /read/.  If you don't read a
post you have no place posting a response.  Or two.


> If you want people to read links that you post, it would be helpful
> if
> you provided some clue as to what information is there, and/or why you
> want them to look at it.  If you don't want to do that, fine... but
> you shouldn't expect that people will necessarily follow your links
> either. 
Get a clue yourself or /be/ /quiet/.
____________________________________________________________________
TonyN.:'                       <mailto:[e-mail]>
      '                              <http://www.georgeanelson.com/>

[Rahul Sundaram]

Derek Martin wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 12:33:48PM -0500, Robert Locke wrote:
>   
>
> >I've been trying to ignore this thread, but Derek,
> >
> >Next time try clicking on the link that Rahul provided (before
> >assuming), which just to repeat was:
> >    
> >
>
> Well, I don't mean to be rude, but simply put, no.  If one were to
> follow every link that someone posted in a thread they were
> participating in, they would never leave the computer.  There would be
> time for nothing else in the day.
>   
>  
I certainly dont expect you to read every link or response posted in 
this list. I agree that noone would have time for that generally but if 
you want to respond to something I have said, I would have expect you to 
read and understand what I have told. I would consider that a very fair 
expectation. Agreed?

> If you want people to read links that you post, it would be helpful
> if
> you provided some clue as to what information is there, and/or why you
> want them to look at it.  If you don't want to do that, fine... but
> you shouldn't expect that people will necessarily follow your links
> either.  
>
>   
>  
My reply did indicate that the link I provide was about contributing to 
Fedora. You assumed that my response had something to do with coding 
without reading the link I provided. The link said "HelpWanted" which 
was generic enough  in my opinion.


> It doesn't take a lot of effort...  if Rahul had only said,
> "Here's a
> list of ways you can get involved without writing code:"  That would
> have been enough.
>  
You can also get involved with coding if you want to.   I wouldnt want 
to exclude developers from participating but it is not by far the only 
method to contribute. I dont expect everyone feeling that things can be 
improved to contribute but it would make a significant difference even 
if say half of them does.

regards
Rahul

[Derek Martin]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 11:42:12PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  I certainly dont expect you to read every link or response posted in
>
>  this list. I agree that noone would have time for that generally but if 
>  you want to respond to something I have said, I would have expect you to 
>  read and understand what I have told. I would consider that a very fair 
>  expectation. Agreed? 
Yes, and no.  Your post suggested that the OP get involved, as if he
wasn't getting involved already by participating here.  I do apologize
for responding without full knowledge, but at the same time, given the
context, I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that you were
suggesting he write code without bothering to look at the link.  It's
something that one hears too often from programmers on mailing lists
like this one, and again, I think sending that link is saying that
you think he's not already involved by participating here.  Hence the
assumption.  Sorry.

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Rahul Sundaram]

Derek Martin wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 11:42:12PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>   
>
> >I certainly dont expect you to read every link or response posted in 
> >this list. I agree that noone would have time for that generally but if 
> >you want to respond to something I have said, I would have expect you to 
> >read and understand what I have told. I would consider that a very fair 
> >expectation. Agreed?
> >    
> >
>
> Yes, and no.  Your post suggested that the OP get involved, as if he
> wasn't getting involved already by participating here.  I do apologize
> for responding without full knowledge, but at the same time, given the
> context, I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that you were
> suggesting he write code without bothering to look at the link.  It's
> something that one hears too often from programmers on mailing lists
> like this one, and again, I think sending that link is saying that
> you think he's not already involved by participating here.  Hence the
> assumption.  Sorry.
>
>   
>  
Reasonable I guess. One of the reasons I wrote the page is avoid the 
misconceptions of being unable to participate because of lack of skills 
or interest in coding. Participating in the list is definitely a good 
thing but if anyone here wants to make a difference it would take a more 
active form of contribution. That can of any form as indicated in the 
link besides a few that I have probably not written down yet.

regards
Rahul

[Jeff Vian]

On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 13:31 -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
>  On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 11:42:12PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  > I certainly dont expect you to read every link or response posted in 
>  > this list. I agree that noone would have time for that generally but if 
>  > you want to respond to something I have said, I would have expect you to 
>  > read and understand what I have told. I would consider that a very fair 
>  > expectation. Agreed?
>  
>  Yes, and no.  Your post suggested that the OP get involved, as if he
>  wasn't getting involved already by participating here.  I do apologize
>  for responding without full knowledge, but at the same time, given the
>  context, I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that you were
>  suggesting he write code without bothering to look at the link.  It's
>  something that one hears too often from programmers on mailing lists
>  like this one, and again, I think sending that link is saying that
>  you think he's not already involved by participating here.  Hence the
>  assumption.  Sorry. 
I saw Rahul's comment as an invitation to do more than just vent in
generalities.  The link he provided is an invitation to get involved in
specifics and a chance to really make a difference without having your
voice buried in the mass of noise on this list.

This list is good for quick responses and general questions as well as a
lot of (sometimes opinionated) discussion.  But as this thread shows, it
quickly takes a turn away from the original subject and often has no
further bearing on the original  topic.

Participating in ways listed in that link are not subject to the
diversions seen here and thus are more focused and more productive.

I think that someone with as strong an opinion as the OP would be of use
in influencing development in ways he feels beneficial.  Others may feel
the same way and it works to influence the system to work "your way".

>  -- 
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list

[Robert Locke]

On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 12:55 -0500, Derek Martin wrote:

>  > You might notice that the "community" needs help with
> more than just
>  > programming....  
>  
>  Of course I'm well aware of that.  But I think providing feedback on a
>  community website is worthwhile.  
Aha!  I believe that is item #1 on the link that Rahul provided,
entitled "communicate"......

But, seriously, one of the things I absolutely hate is being asked to
repeat myself, so I don't expect it of others.  Rahul was actually
pretty succinct and the text from the link to the Project page did not
need to be additionally cut and paste'd into the email he sent because
you refuse to read what is supplied.  That's sort of the idea behind
"links" and "trimming posts", kill the redundancy and keep the
bandwidth
lower for those that don't need the information....

Any email that I reply to, or conversation that I join, requires me to
at least read what came before so I can ensure my own relevance.
Otherwise I'm just flapping my gums.....

>  
>  > Take a look at the above page.  From your other posts, I'm guessing
>  > that you have some talent that would fit quite nicely in a couple of
>  > those areas....
>  
>  Thanks for the nice complement.  :) 
Seriously, take a couple of minutes to read that page.  You've certainly
got the energy and knowledge to be a big help here (as long as you're
willing to click on a link or two <evil grin>)....

--Rob

[Derek Martin]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 01:40:18PM -0500, Robert Locke wrote:
>  On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 12:55 -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
>  
>  > > You might notice that the "community" needs help with more than just
>  > > programming....  
>  > 
>  > Of course I'm well aware of that.  But I think providing feedback on a
>  > community website is worthwhile. 
>  
>  Aha!  I believe that is item #1 on the link that Rahul provided,
>  entitled "communicate"...... 
:-P

OK I admit it, I screwed up!  But I still think people should say
SOMETHING about why they're posting a link, whenever they do.  See my
message to Rahul.  

People make assumptions; that's part of human nature.  Under the
circumstances, and in that context, I think my assumption was a very
reasonable one.  It just turned out to be wrong.  ;-)

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Timothy Murphy]

Derek Martin wrote:

>  OK I admit it, I screwed up!  But I still think people should say
>  SOMETHING about why they're posting a link, whenever they do.  See my
>  message to Rahul. 
(1) Rahul is undoubtedly the single most helpful person
contributing to this list.
In fact he is one of the main reasons why I run Fedora ...

(2) Having said that, I agree with your comment -
one should if possible always add a few words
to explain the relevance of a link.
(In my experience, Rahul nearly always does.)

On my ancient laptop, it takes a little time - 20 to 30 seconds -
for a link to come up,
and it is mildly annoying if and when one finds it is irrelevant.
(Unfunny jokes are my particular bete noire.)

-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: [phone]
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

[Rudolf Kastl]

2005/11/2, Derek Martin <code(a)pizzashack.org&gt;:
>  On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 01:40:18PM -0500, Robert Locke wrote:
>  > On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 12:55 -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
>  >
>  > > > You might notice that the "community" needs help with more than
> just
>  > > > programming....
>  > >
>  > > Of course I'm well aware of that.  But I think providing feedback on a
>  > > community website is worthwhile.
>  >
>  > Aha!  I believe that is item #1 on the link that Rahul provided,
>  > entitled "communicate"......
>
>  :-P
>
>  OK I admit it, I screwed up!  But I still think people should say
>  SOMETHING about why they're posting a link, whenever they do.  See my
>  message to Rahul.
>
>  People make assumptions; that's part of human nature.  Under the
>  circumstances, and in that context, I think my assumption was a very
>  reasonable one.  It just turned out to be wrong.  ;-)
>
>  --
>  Derek D. Martin
>  http://www.pizzashack.org/
>  GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
>
>
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>
>
>  
well lets stop the assumptions... come up with the bugzilla ids you
reported for your system where it shows what exactly is unstable with
you.

regards,
Rudolf Kastl

[Jeff Vian]

On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 12:04 -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
>  On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 10:08:20PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  > >This is community-developed software...  The community's opinion of
>  > >the software matters.  If there's something that you think sucks in
>  > >Fedora, this is as good a place as any to ask why it sucks and whether
>  > >or not anything can be done about it.
>  > >
>  > Or even better get involved. The community can do more than be 
>  > consumers. They can actually improve things. 
>  
>  Not if they don't know how to write code, and don't want to learn...
>  
>  Not everyone who uses Linux is a programmer, and not everyone should
>  be.
>  
>  Thanks for trimming your reply.
>   
Actually they can. Even if they can't code, they can test specific
things and provide feedback to the coders.

>  -- 
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list

[Jeff Vian]

On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 09:45 -0500, David-Paul Niner wrote:
>  Vikram Goyal wrote:
>  
>  >-----Original Message-----
>  >From: Bill Perkins <perk(a)iag.net&gt;
>  >Sent: Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 12:33:39AM -0500
>  >To For users of Fedora Core releases
>  >Subject: Re: Why Fedora ? 

>  >
>  >Of course one can use other desktops does not means one wants to,
>  >especially when one has got used to it. You will know what I mean over
>  >an extended period of time, when you go in cycle of unlearn and relearn
>  >to do the same mundane desktop chores which you had mastered or got used
>  >to in previous releases. And I tell you , it sucks one of interest,
>  >energy and fills one with frustration.
>  >My Rs0.002...
>  >  
>  >
>  Why post messages on a support list about the usefulness of a product 
>  that said list is designed to support?
>  
>  Do you honestly expect anyone to reply with "You know what?  You're 
>  right.   Fedora is of no use to me and I'm going to switch distros 
>  because you don't care for it.   Thank you very much."?
>  
>  What, precisely, are you trying to accomplish?
>  
>  Curious,
>  David-Paul Niner 
By all means, chose your own poison (your OS of choice).  Other than
extolling the many virtues of Fedora for your free comparison with other
OSes or distributions there is nothing anyone can do to convince you
which is best.

[bill perkins]

Vikram Goyal wrote:

> > > 
<huge snip, for brevity; sorry>

Your points (that I snipped out) are all valid, I'm coming in from a 
different point of view. I've been programming in various environments 
for longer than I care to reveal ;) and I've found that while Fedora 
Core isn't something I'd recommend for a desktop-type system to anybody 
but another hacker like myself, I also see the strengths that it has for 
production use- i.e. dns server, mail server (with anti-spam and 
anti-virus), a router, or a firewall. You can also set it up for a 
"typical" home user (email, web browsing, CD/DVD 
playing/burning/producing, etc) and manage it remotely. It all depends 
on what you want to use it for.

>  Of course one can use other desktops does not means one wants to,
>  especially when one has got used to it. You will know what I mean over
>  an extended period of time, when you go in cycle of unlearn and relearn
>  to do the same mundane desktop chores which you had mastered or got used
>  to in previous releases. And I tell you , it sucks one of interest,
>  energy and fills one with frustration.
>  My Rs0.002... 
Yeah, I used to get ticked off at MS-DOS, and then Windows, whenever a 
new release would come out- they'd change and rearrange everything. 
Probably why I stuck with Windowmaker for so long; its' UI remained 
mostly unchanged for quite some time. I could tinker with it, dress it 
up to look nice, add some desktop widgets to it, and I was a happy 
camper; I could get on with my work. The Fedora software, as you've 
pointed out, tends to get changed around. Part of the price you pay on 
this distro- it keeps changing, and you can spend time maintaining it 
(like Windows, but without the sense of futility). I like to explore new 
ways of doing things; this is why I choose to use Fedora.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The two most common things in the	| Bill Perkins
  universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity."	| perk(a)iag.net
					| programmer-at-large
		F. Zappa		| ALL assembly languages done here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Vikram Goyal]

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Perkins <perk(a)iag.net&gt;
Sent: Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 08:38:47PM -0500
To For users of Fedora Core releases
Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?


>  Vikram Goyal wrote:
>  
>  >> >
>  
>  <huge snip, for brevity; sorry>
>  
>  Your points (that I snipped out) are all valid, I'm coming in from a 
>  different point of view. 
Thanks for accepting the views which I think disturbed quite a few
people here.

>  I've been programming in various environments 
>  for longer than I care to reveal ;) and I've found that while Fedora 
>  Core isn't something I'd recommend for a desktop-type system to anybody 
>  but another hacker like myself, I also see the strengths that it has for 
>  production use- i.e. dns server, mail server (with anti-spam and 
>  anti-virus), a router, or a firewall. You can also set it up for a 
>  "typical" home user (email, web browsing, CD/DVD 
>  playing/burning/producing, etc) and manage it remotely. It all depends 
>  on what you want to use it for.
>   
As far as fedora's strong points is concerned, there's no doubt about
it.

I am also running a mail-server, a small web site with all the nitty
gritty of various other apps which I think a normal user won't be
touching. I am not a typical desktop user myself. Have been tinkering
with UNIX for a long time now.

I think I am quite a patient and observant person myself but was forced
to speak after experiencing 4 releases:) I believe users like myself
deserve at least this much an opportunity to elicit what they feel.

The point I wanted to make with my rant was that I have observed over a
period of time, say about three years that there "had been" very good
progress over intuitiveness and usefulness of apps previously but in
each new release that setup was disrupted with strange ways of doing the
same things, some of which I elaborated previously. Now the problem
which arises out of these disruptions is that the system which has
reached a level of stability at desktop level is rendered useless and a
new cycle begins to bring it back to stability and usefulness from a
user's point of view. This I think is a wastage of resources for both
programmers and users. Users try to grasp the new system of doing things
and programmers try to debug or change the options. Now this sucks both
of energy to bring something new and stabilize the system. What I mean
with all this rant is that once an apps has reached maturity, its
options or rather way of doing the acts should be frozen, or if that
apps is being replaced with something new & improved then at least the
working at user level should remain same.  A user is not concerned with
how a thing is being done behind the covers or what wizardry a programmer
applied in the new apps code.

>  >Of course one can use other desktops does not means one wants
> to,
>  >especially when one has got used to it. You will know what I mean over
>  >an extended period of time, when you go in cycle of unlearn and relearn
>  >to do the same mundane desktop chores which you had mastered or got used
>  >to in previous releases. And I tell you , it sucks one of interest,
>  >energy and fills one with frustration.
>  >My Rs0.002...
>  
>  Yeah, I used to get ticked off at MS-DOS, and then Windows, whenever a 
>  new release would come out- they'd change and rearrange everything. 
Windows has been a no-op for me for a long long time. 10 years from now.

>  Probably why I stuck with Windowmaker for so long; its' UI
> remained 
>  mostly unchanged for quite some time. I could tinker with it, dress it 
>  up to look nice, add some desktop widgets to it, and I was a happy 
>  camper; I could get on with my work. The Fedora software, as you've 
>  pointed out, tends to get changed around. Part of the price you pay on 
>  this distro- it keeps changing, and you can spend time maintaining it 
>  (like Windows, but without the sense of futility). I like to explore new 
>  ways of doing things; this is why I choose to use Fedora.
>   
I agree, exploring is a part of human nature. But getting in the
wilderness too often gets on one's nerves, even the most experienced
experts;)

Regards!
-- 
vikram...
         ||||||||
         ||||||||
^^'''''^^||root||^^^'''''''^^
        // \\   ))
       //(( \\// \\
      // /\\ ||   \\
     || / )) ((    \\
-- 
You know it's Monday when you wake up and it's Tuesday.
		-- Garfield
-- 
 *
~|~
 =
Registered Linux User #285795

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

> The point I wanted to make with my rant was that I have observed over
> a
> period of time, say about three years that there "had been" very good
> progress over intuitiveness and usefulness of apps previously but in
> each new release that setup was disrupted with strange ways of doing the
> same things, some of which I elaborated previously. Now the problem
> which arises out of these disruptions is that the system which has
> reached a level of stability at desktop level is rendered useless and a
> new cycle begins to bring it back to stability and usefulness from a
> user's point of view. This I think is a wastage of resources for both
> programmers and users. Users try to grasp the new system of doing things
> and programmers try to debug or change the options. Now this sucks both
> of energy to bring something new and stabilize the system. What I mean
> with all this rant is that once an apps has reached maturity, its
> options or rather way of doing the acts should be frozen, or if that
> apps is being replaced with something new & improved then at least the
> working at user level should remain same.  A user is not concerned with
> how a thing is being done behind the covers or what wizardry a programmer
> applied in the new apps code.
>  
There are two things here. One is code churn and other one is the 
changes in the user interface. End users typically dont care much about 
internal code changes like you said. The user interaction model isnt 
mature enough to be boring yet and thats not expected to settle down 
anytime soon but there is a increasingly good focus on it which is the 
'deliver the same but better' approach. Rapid development and feedback 
cycle is one of the key strengths of the development model we have 
relied upon to mature and improve the code and for a platform like 
Fedora the enhancements we get out of the feedback is shared by a large 
number of other platforms too. Now Fedora by design is a fast moving 
distribution and that obviously is appealing to a good number of users. 
When there is a larger number of updates, there is a potential higher 
chance of regressions.As have been pointed out by me earlier, one way to 
avoid this or significantly reduce the effect of disruption is for the  
active users with a suprisingly good amount of energy is to get their 
hands dirty with testing the updates ( updates-testing )or fedora 
development  repository atleast for the major changes (as specified in 
the changelog or the version numbers).

You can very well form opinions and discuss this in length but more 
participation has a much higher impact. Atleast some of the users have 
the energy and interest to do this. What are you waiting for?

regards
Rahul

[Vikram Goyal]

-----Original Message-----
From: Rahul Sundaram <sundaram(a)redhat.com&gt;
Sent: Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 07:00:19PM +0530
To For users of Fedora Core releases
Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?

Hello,

>  
>  There are two things here. One is code churn and other one is the 
>  changes in the user interface. End users typically dont care much about 
>  internal code changes like you said. The user interaction model isnt 
>  mature enough to be boring yet and thats not expected to settle down 
>  anytime soon but there is a increasingly good focus on it which is the 
>  'deliver the same but better' approach. Rapid development and feedback 
>  cycle is one of the key strengths of the development model we have 
>  relied upon to mature and improve the code and for a platform like 
>  Fedora the enhancements we get out of the feedback is shared by a large 
>  number of other platforms too. Now Fedora by design is a fast moving 
>  distribution and that obviously is appealing to a good number of users. 
>  When there is a larger number of updates, there is a potential higher 
>  chance of regressions.As have been pointed out by me earlier, one way to 
>  avoid this or significantly reduce the effect of disruption is for the  
>  active users with a suprisingly good amount of energy is to get their 
>  hands dirty with testing the updates ( updates-testing )or fedora 
>  development  repository atleast for the major changes (as specified in 
>  the changelog or the version numbers).
>  
>  You can very well form opinions and discuss this in length but more 
>  participation has a much higher impact. Atleast some of the users have 
>  the energy and interest to do this. What are you waiting for?
>   
Surely, I'll look in that direction and try to be more contructive.

Regards!
-- 
vikram...
         ||||||||
         ||||||||
^^'''''^^||root||^^^'''''''^^
        // \\   ))
       //(( \\// \\
      // /\\ ||   \\
     || / )) ((    \\
-- 
Q:	What does it say on the bottom of Coke cans in North Dakota?
A:	Open other end.
-- 
 O
~|~
 =
Registered Linux User #285795

[bill perkins]

Vikram Goyal wrote:
> ><huge snip, for brevity; sorry>
> >
> >Your points (that I snipped out) are all valid, I'm coming in from a 
> >different point of view.
>  
>  Thanks for accepting the views which I think disturbed quite a few
>  people here.
>    
Heh heh... yeah, that happens. No big deal :)

>  The point I wanted to make with my rant was that I have observed over
> a
>  period of time, say about three years that there "had been" very good...
A point made elsewhere on this thread is that Fedora is a "fast-paced" 
distro (not so much "bleeding edge" or "leading edge"), as there are 
frequent updates to the system. I've been using Slackware all this time 
(10 years), and I'd pretty much stick with the distribution's system 
files, and update the kernel (which I tweaked for my system) and 
Firefox. Unless I had a really good reason to mess with anything else, I 
didn't bother with it. To me, Fedora is more of a thrill-ride, while 
with Slackware I _might_ do a full system upgrade once a year, and 
kernel upgrades about every six weeks or so (when I had the time), while 
here in Fedoraland, I'm getting upgrades several times a week... fast 
paced indeed...

>  Windows has been a no-op for me for a long long time. 10 years from
> now. 
I blew up Windows '95 in less than an hour; found Slackware Linux a week 
or 10 days later, hasn't exploded yet...

>  I agree, exploring is a part of human nature. But getting in the
>  wilderness too often gets on one's nerves, even the most experienced
>  experts;) 
Sure, no doubts there! Like I say, I see Fedora as something of a thrill 
ride; staying on top of security updates can become an obsession, no 
matter the platform. I see it all as "managed chaos", and I try to keep 
it down to a dull roar as much as possible... of course, I'm just doing 
the occasional development stint, the rest of the time I'm reading this 
mailing list and running yum every time something needs to be updated... ;)

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The two most common things in the	| Bill Perkins
  universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity."	| perk(a)iag.net
					| programmer-at-large
		F. Zappa		| ALL assembly languages done here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Derek Martin]

On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 10:51:27AM +0530, Vikram Goyal wrote:
>  Then came fedora with its bag of problems. Most of the users like me
>  thought , ok, maybe in one or two release it will also reach the same
>  level of comfort as redhat 8, 9. But that never happened.  
And it probably never will.  Fedora is meant to be a cutting-edge
testbed for RH enterprise-level distributions.  This is both good and
bad, depending on your perspective.  As others have said, if you need
a stable desktop environment, most likely you really should be looking
elsewhere.

>  One good example is file browser. In 8,9 ver one could do almost all
>  acts in the same browser window. There was preferences tab with all the
>  nitty-gritty settings which a user might want to tweak. The comfort
>  level was great. Then came nautilus. File browser was put in the
>  system-tools. Its preferences tab removed. Now for each setting one has
>  to click Desktop -> Preferences -> the particular preference, which in
>  my opinion sucks. This is only one example, and there are numerous.  
There have been many arguments about this kind of thing on the
gnome-usability mailing list (and other gnome-related lists too I
would imagine).  This is not a problem with Fedora per se; the gnome
UI designers have issues.  They keep making things worse, not better,
all the while telling you that you're just doing it wrong.  The
computer is supposed to work the way *I* want, not the other way
around...

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Scot L. Harris]

On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 11:17, Derek Martin wrote:
>  On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 10:51:27AM +0530, Vikram Goyal wrote:
>  > Then came fedora with its bag of problems. Most of the users like me
>  > thought , ok, maybe in one or two release it will also reach the same
>  > level of comfort as redhat 8, 9. But that never happened. 
>  
>  And it probably never will.  Fedora is meant to be a cutting-edge
>  testbed for RH enterprise-level distributions.  This is both good and
>  bad, depending on your perspective.  As others have said, if you need
>  a stable desktop environment, most likely you really should be looking
>  elsewhere.
>  
>  > One good example is file browser. In 8,9 ver one could do almost all
>  > acts in the same browser window. There was preferences tab with all the
>  > nitty-gritty settings which a user might want to tweak. The comfort
>  > level was great. Then came nautilus. File browser was put in the
>  > system-tools. Its preferences tab removed. Now for each setting one has
>  > to click Desktop -> Preferences -> the particular preference, which in
>  > my opinion sucks. This is only one example, and there are numerous. 
>  
>  There have been many arguments about this kind of thing on the
>  gnome-usability mailing list (and other gnome-related lists too I
>  would imagine).  This is not a problem with Fedora per se; the gnome
>  UI designers have issues.  They keep making things worse, not better,
>  all the while telling you that you're just doing it wrong.  The
>  computer is supposed to work the way *I* want, not the other way
>  around... 
Maybe GORM 1.0 will be an answer to these problems.  :)

[Timothy Murphy]

Derek Martin wrote:

> > Then came fedora with its bag of problems. Most of the users like
> me
> > thought , ok, maybe in one or two release it will also reach the same
> > level of comfort as redhat 8, 9. But that never happened.
>  
>  And it probably never will.  Fedora is meant to be a cutting-edge
>  testbed for RH enterprise-level distributions.  This is both good and
>  bad, depending on your perspective.  As others have said, if you need
>  a stable desktop environment, most likely you really should be looking
>  elsewhere. 
I find this often made comment - that FC is "bleeding edge" - 
utterly bizarre.

It seems to me, on the contrary, that the Fedora team
is extremely cautious and only takes one tiny step at a time.

If you want "bleeding edge" try the development repositories.

In my (very long) experience,
Fedora is neither more nor less adventurous
than any other distribution,
or indeed than Redhat itself.

There are very good reasons, in my view,
for keeping up-to-date with Fedora,
as many very useful developments come on line.
(In my case, for example, the integration of bluetooth into the kernel,
and the availability of recent bluez rpms,
has greatly simplified my life.)

It is true that there are occasional problems with new versions
of old applications, but that's life.


-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: [phone]
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

[Les Mikesell]

On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 08:28, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>  > 
>  > And it probably never will.  Fedora is meant to be a cutting-edge
>  > testbed for RH enterprise-level distributions.  This is both good and
>  > bad, depending on your perspective.  As others have said, if you need
>  > a stable desktop environment, most likely you really should be looking
>  > elsewhere.
>  
>  I find this often made comment - that FC is "bleeding edge" - 
>  utterly bizarre. 
Think of it in the context of untested vs. well tested, and look
at the volume of updates made during the short FC version life
and it won't seem so bizarre.  Those updates are done for a reason.

>  It seems to me, on the contrary, that the Fedora team
>  is extremely cautious and only takes one tiny step at a time. 
FC1 -> FC2 was a very big change.

>  If you want "bleeding edge" try the development
> repositories. 
Even less tested...

>  In my (very long) experience,
>  Fedora is neither more nor less adventurous
>  than any other distribution,
>  or indeed than Redhat itself. 
Then you don't understand to difference between fedora and RH
enterprise.  With fedora, the goal is to be stable at the
_end_ of the distribution life cycle.  That is, the purpose
is to get wide exposure and testing of the new development
included at the start of that version's life and fix the
problems that won't otherwise be found.  With RHEL, the idea is
to start with stable, well tested code in the initial release
and do minimal changes over the much longer life of that version.

>  There are very good reasons, in my view,
>  for keeping up-to-date with Fedora,
>  as many very useful developments come on line.
>  (In my case, for example, the integration of bluetooth into the kernel,
>  and the availability of recent bluez rpms,
>  has greatly simplified my life.) 
This is true - but new development brings new bugs, and hardware
related issues are only going to be found after extensive use.

>  It is true that there are occasional problems with new versions
>  of old applications, but that's life. 
Exactly - so you don't want to run untested code in places where
those 'occasional problems' have serious consequences.  If your
computer is a disposable toy, or you have a machine just for testing,
or everything you really need is backed up and you are prepared
to reinstall, you can do the testing yourself.  Otherwise you'll
probably want to play the odds with well tested code.

It is somewhat unfortunate that all the software is treated the
same way in the distribution.  I'd like to see a middle ground where
fairly current applications are included (since a bug there won't
normally crash the machine) along with a stable, well-tested operating
system.

-- 
  Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

[Jeff Vian]

On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 11:52 -0600, Les Mikesell wrote:
>  On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 08:28, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>  > > 
>  > > And it probably never will.  Fedora is meant to be a cutting-edge
>  > > testbed for RH enterprise-level distributions.  This is both good and
>  > > bad, depending on your perspective.  As others have said, if you need
>  > > a stable desktop environment, most likely you really should be looking
>  > > elsewhere.
>  > 
>  > I find this often made comment - that FC is "bleeding edge" - 
>  > utterly bizarre.
>  
>  Think of it in the context of untested vs. well tested, and look 
This is a bizarre
statement.  If you are running the development version
then you can justifiably say untested.  That is what that tree is for.

The release version on the other hand has been tested and judged to be
stable enough for most to use. 

>  at the volume of updates made during the short FC version life
>  and it won't seem so bizarre.  Those updates are done for a reason.
>   
Yes, the updates are done for a reason.  Often security fixes,
enhancements, and bug fixes as well.

>  > It seems to me, on the contrary, that the Fedora team
>  > is extremely cautious and only takes one tiny step at a time.
>  
>  FC1 -> FC2 was a very big change.
>  
>  > If you want "bleeding edge" try the development repositories.
>  
>  Even less tested...
>  
>  > In my (very long) experience,
>  > Fedora is neither more nor less adventurous
>  > than any other distribution,
>  > or indeed than Redhat itself.
>  
>  Then you don't understand to difference between fedora and RH
>  enterprise.  With fedora, the goal is to be stable at the
>  _end_ of the distribution life cycle.  That is, the purpose
>  is to get wide exposure and testing of the new development
>  included at the start of that version's life and fix the
>  problems that won't otherwise be found.  With RHEL, the idea is
>  to start with stable, well tested code in the initial release
>  and do minimal changes over the much longer life of that version.
>   
True, and you have the opportunity to decide how much change 'you' can
handle.  A very good but still somewhat improving fedora, or a stable,
nearly static RHEL version.
 
>  > There are very good reasons, in my view,
>  > for keeping up-to-date with Fedora,
>  > as many very useful developments come on line.
>  > (In my case, for example, the integration of bluetooth into the kernel,
>  > and the availability of recent bluez rpms,
>  > has greatly simplified my life.)
>  
>  This is true - but new development brings new bugs, and hardware
>  related issues are only going to be found after extensive use.
>   
It is impossible to have the amount/variety of users and hardware in a
limited testing environment..

Fedora is a testbed, but still very solid and hardly worth being called
unstable.

>  > It is true that there are occasional problems with new versions
>  > of old applications, but that's life.
>  
>  Exactly - so you don't want to run untested code in places where
>  those 'occasional problems' have serious consequences.  If your
>  computer is a disposable toy, or you have a machine just for testing,
>  or everything you really need is backed up and you are prepared
>  to reinstall, you can do the testing yourself.  Otherwise you'll
>  probably want to play the odds with well tested code.
>   
Again, that is your choice.  Use centos or whitebox linux or even debian
if you need more stability.

>  It is somewhat unfortunate that all the software is treated the
>  same way in the distribution.  I'd like to see a middle ground where
>  fairly current applications are included (since a bug there won't
>  normally crash the machine) along with a stable, well-tested operating
>  system.
>  
>  -- 
>    Les Mikesell
>      lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
>  
>

[Derek Martin]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 02:28:32PM +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>  Derek Martin wrote:
>  
>  >> Then came fedora with its bag of problems. Most of the users like me
>  >> thought , ok, maybe in one or two release it will also reach the same
>  >> level of comfort as redhat 8, 9. But that never happened.
>  > 
>  > And it probably never will.  Fedora is meant to be a cutting-edge
>  > testbed for RH enterprise-level distributions.   
 
>  I find this often made comment - that FC is "bleeding edge"
> - 
>  utterly bizarre. 
Well, FWIW, I think the connotations of "cutting edge" and "bleeding
edge" are slightly different.  To me, the former represents the latest
and greatest that actually works, where as the latter represents the
absolute newest code available, which will almost certainly crash or
even cause damage to your system (hence the reference to blood).
So I don't agree. :)

>  It seems to me, on the contrary, that the Fedora team
>  is extremely cautious and only takes one tiny step at a time. 
I think they would disagree with you, as do I.

>  If you want "bleeding edge" try the development
> repositories. 
Indeed.

>  In my (very long) experience,
>  Fedora is neither more nor less adventurous
>  than any other distribution, 
HUH?  Compare Fedora to Debian Stable.  There is a UNIVERSE of
difference between the two.  Compare to other distros and get varying
degrees of difference in between the two.

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Derek Martin]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 02:04:46PM -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
>  > In my (very long) experience, Fedora is neither more nor less
>  > adventurous than any other distribution,
>  
>  HUH?  Compare Fedora to Debian Stable.  There is a UNIVERSE of
>  difference between the two.  Compare to other distros and get varying
>  degrees of difference in between the two. 
In fact, in thinking about it again, comparing to Debian is a good
comparison.  Fedora is the equivalent of Debian testing.  It is *not*
stable, and is not meant to be.  

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

> In fact, in thinking about it again, comparing to Debian is a good
> comparison.  Fedora is the equivalent of Debian testing.  It is *not*
> stable, and is not meant to be.  
>
>   
>  
Fedora does not follow the debian release system and such comparisons 
are pretty vague. Fedora is meant to be stable in the sense of being 
robust but not stagnant. If you want want to better the chances of 
reducing regressions, get a test system, enable updates-testing and 
provide feedback in fedora-test list and bugzilla

regards
Rahul

[Tim]

On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 14:23 -0800, Benjamin Franz wrote:
>  Or perhaps the much too frequent updates to SELinux that have been
>  known to break machines as well (leading to many people disabling
>  SELinux to avoid having their systems rendered unusable randomly by
>  system updates). 
Although I personally feel that SELinux is the wrong way to fix things
(like firewalls to protect you from bad software, instead of improving
the software), I have it running to see how it goes.  It slows one of my
PCs down a bit too much, compared to using it with it disabled.

I am curious as to whether these infamous problems are due to the
updated rule sets (which we ought to be able to do on our own, like
iptable rules), or down to the other programming behind SELinux?

-- 
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.

[Rahul Sundaram]

Tim wrote:

> On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 14:23 -0800, Benjamin Franz wrote:
>   
>
> >Or perhaps the much too frequent updates to SELinux that have been
> >known to break machines as well (leading to many people disabling
> >SELinux to avoid having their systems rendered unusable randomly by
> >system updates).
> >    
> >
>
> Although I personally feel that SELinux is the wrong way to fix things
> (like firewalls to protect you from bad software, instead of improving
> the software), I have it running to see how it goes. 
>  
Improving the software itself is not orthogonal to adding a additional 
layer of protection like SELinux. Security works through layers.

regards
Rahul

Doesn't this page explain all these options . . .

http://www.redhat.com/en_us/USA/rhel/migrate/whichlinux/

Certainly answers the question that started this thread.

A
=

>  Tim wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 14:23 -0800, Benjamin Franz wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Or perhaps the much too frequent updates to SELinux that have been
> >>known to break machines as well (leading to many people disabling
> >>SELinux to avoid having their systems rendered unusable randomly
> >> by
> >>system updates).
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Although I personally feel that SELinux is the wrong way to fix
> > things
> >(like firewalls to protect you from bad software, instead of
> > improving
> >the software), I have it running to see how it goes.
> >
>  Improving the software itself is not orthogonal to adding a
>  additional
>  layer of protection like SELinux. Security works through layers.
>
>  regards
>  Rahul
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>
>  --
>  This message has been scanned for viruses and
>  dangerous content by Avantel Systems, and is
>  believed to be clean.
>  

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Avantel Systems, and is
believed to be clean.

[WOLF KINDERMANN]

STOP SENDING ME YOUR SHIT
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> 
  To: For users of Fedora Core releases<mailto:[e-mail]> 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 8:59 AM
  Subject: Re: Why Fedora ?


  Doesn't this page explain all these options . . .

 
http://www.redhat.com/en_us/USA/rhel/migrate/whichlinux/<http://www.re...

  Certainly answers the question that started this thread.

  A
  =

>  Tim wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 14:23 -0800, Benjamin Franz wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Or perhaps the much too frequent updates to SELinux that have been
> >>known to break machines as well (leading to many people disabling
> >>SELinux to avoid having their systems rendered unusable randomly
> >> by
> >>system updates).
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Although I personally feel that SELinux is the wrong way to fix
> > things
> >(like firewalls to protect you from bad software, instead of
> > improving
> >the software), I have it running to see how it goes.
> >
>  Improving the software itself is not orthogonal to adding a
>  additional
>  layer of protection like SELinux. Security works through layers.
>
>  regards
>  Rahul
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
>  To unsubscribe:
> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list<https://www.redhat...
>
>  --
>  This message has been scanned for viruses and
>  dangerous content by Avantel Systems, and is
>  believed to be clean.
>  

  -- 
  This message has been scanned for viruses and
  dangerous content by Avantel Systems, and is
  believed to be clean.

  -- 
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  [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
  To unsubscribe:
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[Timothy Murphy]

Benjamin Franz wrote:

> >> I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not
> a
> >> stable release.
> >
> > What exactly does that mean?
> >
> > In my experience, not only is Fedora stable,
> > but so is every Linux distribution I have tried in recent years,
> > as also are all recent versions of Windows -
> > assuming that by "stable" you mean
> > you do not get the "blue screen of death" or equivalent.
>  
>  You mean like the recent update to Xorg that rendered many machines
>  completely borken unless you are enough of a system expert to manage a
>  forced boot to run level 3, locating the old Xorg packages in the yum
>  cache and manually force a '--oldpackage' install with rpm from the
>  command line? 
I guess it is just a matter of terminology,
but I would not use the word "unstable" to describe this.
I would just say "the latest version of X does not work on my machine".

Incidentally, couldn't you get to a text console with Ctrl-Alt-F1?
If so, I would hardly say one needed to be a system expert -
just to have read one or two basic documents.

I have a fairly esoteric collection of computers,
and didn't find FC-4 any more or less of a problem
than any of the RedHat or Slackware distributions I've tried.
In fact, FC-4 is the _first_ distribution for which X worked
"out of the box" on my Sony C1VFK Picturebook
since Xorg started.
(I've always had to compile X with a patch for this machine,
as has everyone else with a Picturebook.
Apparently the patch has now been included by Xorg.)

To me, a machine is "unstable" if it crashes fairly frequently
for no obvious reason.
As I said, I haven't come across an unstable version of Linux
(or Windows) for several years.

I wouldn't use the word "unstable" if a distribution
simply did not work on a particular machine.

In my experience, one is likely to meet problems
with every new distribution;
I haven't found FC-[1234] any different in this respect
from the many versions of RH that I ran through.

I would say that "yum" has been an extremely useful tool,
which has enormously simplified life -
far better than the old Redhat update (or was it up2date?).






-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: [phone]
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

[Derek Martin]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 01:57:50PM +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>  > You mean like the recent update to Xorg that rendered many
> machines
>  > completely borken unless you are enough of a system expert to manage a
>  > forced boot to run level 3, locating the old Xorg packages in the yum
>  > cache and manually force a '--oldpackage' install with rpm from the
>  > command line?
>  
>  I guess it is just a matter of terminology,
>  but I would not use the word "unstable" to describe this.
>  I would just say "the latest version of X does not work on my machine". 
The word "stable" (as an adjective) has two primary definitions:

  1) unchanging
  2) able to remain operational indefinitely (or something to that
  effect)

Something which is "unstable" is the opposite of the above.

If the latest version of X doesn't work on your machine, then by both
definitions, that's pretty unstable.  If the current version of X has
a big security hole, and the new version doesn't work, that sort of
leaves you between a rock and a hard place...  Not a good situation to
be in if you're a new user.  That would turn me off right away!

>  Incidentally, couldn't you get to a text console with
> Ctrl-Alt-F1?
>  If so, I would hardly say one needed to be a system expert -
>  just to have read one or two basic documents. 
You might, if you know to do it.  Or to look for those documents.  Of
course, most people expect to do their research on the Internet, and
for the majority of people, that means that X needs to work.  Sure,
there are text-only browsers, but a) you have to know about them to
use them and b) they're clunky and hard to use for a wide variety of
web pages, due to the nature of web design these days.  So for the
average newbie, they're just lost if X doesn't work.

>  I have a fairly esoteric collection of computers,
>  and didn't find FC-4 any more or less of a problem
>  than any of the RedHat or Slackware distributions I've tried.
>  In fact, FC-4 is the _first_ distribution for which X worked
>  "out of the box" on my Sony C1VFK Picturebook
>  since Xorg started.
>  (I've always had to compile X with a patch for this machine,
>  as has everyone else with a Picturebook.
>  Apparently the patch has now been included by Xorg.) 
You're a pretty clueful user, by that standard.  Newbies don't compile
their own software, and probably wouldn't know where to begin.  You
can't apply your own standards uniformly across the user community.

I have to admit, I quite like Fedora, and I think it is one of the
best distributions available for desktop usage.  BUT, I also have to
admit that I've been using linux for 10 years, and can dance my way
around nearly any problem I encounter.  What works for me doesn't
necessarily work for someone who's never sat in front of a computer
before.

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Tim]

On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 13:57 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>  Incidentally, couldn't you get to a text console with
> Ctrl-Alt-F1? 
Not always with some recent XOrg problems.  It can make a complete mess
of the display.  On one system I had scrambled graphics, on another
completely black screens.  You did have to boot in text-only mode, so
that XOrg was never started, before you could see what you were doing.

-- 
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.

[Rudolf Kastl]

2005/10/28, Mike McCarty <mike.mccarty(a)sbcglobal.net&gt;:
>  Rudolf Kastl wrote:
>  > from a developers point of view it doesent matter much what you use...
>
>   From a developer? Of Linux? Or of Linux software? 
i dont see a big difference between either two besides the fact that
again i dont see where it matters on what distro some dev fires up vim
;) a developer is capable of installing exactly the stuff he wants.

>  I disagree with this statement entirely. Fedora Core is not a
>  stable release. For that reason, IMO, it is unsuitable for
>  doing stable software development. 
rawhide is even stable enough for doing development on it.

usually future versions of software are developed versus cvs versions
of librarys especially if theres lib upstream work done aswell.

some developers are pretty happy with vim and a booting kernel aswell
as recent buildtools so fedora in that case provides alot more than
that.

define unstable. it doesent crash for me... if it did id gdb it
(application wise) and i havent seen a kernel panic in ages either.

>  OTOH, if one is designing
>  commercial software, and wants a test machine or two set up
>  the way one projects the world will be when the software is
>  ready for release, then one probably needs to have something
>  like Fedora core on those test machines. 
that makes a nice quote. its pretty obvious to me you dont do
commercial software development.

>  > if you identify and report/fix bugs _upstream_ you are fixing the
>  > stuff for all distros...
>
>  For all *RHEL* distros. 
wrong. the core components used in all major linux distros are pretty
much the same software.
kde gnome kernel .. same goes for most of the software in core. most
importantly everything _can_ be used in another distro without
problems. excuse me but... it would make more sense if youd just take
a look at other distros and their components. and also what
with patches happens... they go upstream... once they are upstream
they are everywhere.

>  > theres no such thing as "distro wars" with experienced linux users and
>  > real open source developers. you seem to be rather new to the world of
>  > linux.
>
>  Oh yes there are "distro wars". I just don't participate in 'em.
not among real experienced linux users / developers. i have yet to
experience that. sure there are always kids trolling here and there. a
few kids trolling doesent make a war.

>  > whide because i like to have a bit
>  > more challange and i love helping to make future versions better.
>
>  Please don't top post. 
i now responded the same way you did... you will see that its not
easier to read than a top post. id even say harder. my suggestion is
to use a better mail client or submit proper feature requests
upstream.

>  Mike
>  --
>  p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
>  This message made from 100% recycled bits.
>  You have found the bank of Larn.
>  I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
>  I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  
y

[Dan Hensley]

On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 17:17 +0100, Rudolf Kastl wrote:

>  > > if you identify and report/fix bugs _upstream_ you are
> fixing the
>  > > stuff for all distros...
>  >
>  > For all *RHEL* distros.
>  
>  wrong. the core components used in all major linux distros are pretty
>  much the same software.
>  kde gnome kernel .. same goes for most of the software in core. most
>  importantly everything _can_ be used in another distro without
>  problems. excuse me but... it would make more sense if youd just take
>  a look at other distros and their components. and also what
>  with patches happens... they go upstream... once they are upstream
>  they are everywhere. 
I didn't want to get into this thread, but I wanted to respond to a few
comments.

First, yes most distros use the same core components, but they do not
ship the same VERSIONS of these components.  RHEL tends to lag the
bleeding edge to make sure the versions they do ship are stable.  BIG
DIFFERENCE.

>  > > whide because i like to have a bit
>  > > more challange and i love helping to make future versions better.
>  >
>  > Please don't top post.
>  
>  i now responded the same way you did... you will see that its not
>  easier to read than a top post. id even say harder. my suggestion is
>  to use a better mail client or submit proper feature requests
>  upstream. 
Wrong.  It's much easier for someone like me who has largely ignored the
thread to jump in.  I can follow the discussion point by point without
having to read through previous posts that I have deleted.  The only
thing more evil than top-posting is bottom-posting.  Please see

http://www.faqs.org/docs/jargon/T/top-post.html
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/comics/xbooks/readpost/section-4.html

One thing that is incredibly hard to read is words with missing
punctuation and misspellings.  Missing apostrophes are near the top of
that list (and many are guilty).  Here are a few examples:

dont    -  no such word.  Use "don't".
doesent, doesnt - ditto.  Use "doesn't".
cant    - to tilt at an angle.  "can't" means cannot.
wont    - also means something else in English.  "won't" means "will
not".
its     - Possessive form.  "it's" means "it is".  See
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000227.htm

Obviously non-native English speakers get a lot of latitude here (the
fact that one can converse in English as a 2nd or 3rd language is
commendable), but the native English speakers are frequently the worst
offenders.

Dan






>  
>  >
>  > Mike
>  > --
>  > p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
>  > This message made from 100% recycled bits.
>  > You have found the bank of Larn.
>  > I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
>  > I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
>  >
>  > --
>  > fedora-list mailing list
>  > fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  > To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  >
>  y
>

[Rudolf Kastl]

2005/11/3, Dan Hensley <dan(a)dshensley.com&gt;:
>  On Thu, 2005-11-03 at 17:17 +0100, Rudolf Kastl wrote:
>
>  > > > if you identify and report/fix bugs _upstream_ you are fixing the
>  > > > stuff for all distros...
>  > >
>  > > For all *RHEL* distros.
>  >
>  > wrong. the core components used in all major linux distros are pretty
>  > much the same software.
>  > kde gnome kernel .. same goes for most of the software in core. most
>  > importantly everything _can_ be used in another distro without
>  > problems. excuse me but... it would make more sense if youd just take
>  > a look at other distros and their components. and also what
>  > with patches happens... they go upstream... once they are upstream
>  > they are everywhere.
>
>  I didn't want to get into this thread, but I wanted to respond to a few
>  comments.
>
>  First, yes most distros use the same core components, but they do not
>  ship the same VERSIONS of these components.  RHEL tends to lag the
>  bleeding edge to make sure the versions they do ship are stable.  BIG
>  DIFFERENCE. 
also not the same patchset. but please read the comment i replied to
aswell... i stated that stuff is beeing fixed for all distros if the
fixes go upstream.

>  > > > whide because i like to have a bit
>  > > > more challange and i love helping to make future versions better.
>  > >
>  > > Please don't top post.
>  >
>  > i now responded the same way you did... you will see that its not
>  > easier to read than a top post. id even say harder. my suggestion is
>  > to use a better mail client or submit proper feature requests
>  > upstream.
>
>  Wrong.  It's much easier for someone like me who has largely ignored the
>  thread to jump in.  I can follow the discussion point by point without
>  having to read through previous posts that I have deleted.  The only
>  thing more evil than top-posting is bottom-posting.  Please see
>
>  http://www.faqs.org/docs/jargon/T/top-post.html
>  http://www.faqs.org/faqs/comics/xbooks/readpost/section-4.html
>
>  One thing that is incredibly hard to read is words with missing
>  punctuation and misspellings.  Missing apostrophes are near the top of
>  that list (and many are guilty).  Here are a few examples:
>
>  dont    -  no such word.  Use "don't".
>  doesent, doesnt - ditto.  Use "doesn't".
>  cant    - to tilt at an angle.  "can't" means cannot.
>  wont    - also means something else in English.  "won't" means "will
>  not".
>  its     - Possessive form.  "it's" means "it is".  See
>  http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000227.htm
>
>  Obviously non-native English speakers get a lot of latitude here (the
>  fact that one can converse in English as a 2nd or 3rd language is
>  commendable), but the native English speakers are frequently the worst
>  offenders. 
well i just use the threaded view in my mail client and like that top
posts are easier to read for me because i dont have to read old stuff
over and over, but hey... if it helps you... punctuation etc... hmm i
usually get the meaning from the context if i read the whole sentence
but ok... its not proper english... umm its not my native language
either. usually i dont care ... neither about upper or lower casing.

commenting this thread seems like a waste of time kinda. id rather
talk about real constructive things like the bug ids people are
referring to when they say words like "unstable". just couldnt resist
in a free minute to reply to some of the funniest comments.

bug -> identified -> reproduced -> reported -> fixed

if fedora wasnt cutting edge id use another distro. some people are
already bored because they want the newer versions of software than
fc4 ships with.

some people are complaining that the versions shipped in fedora are
too new. the main question here is... who doesent use the distro that
suits for him and why doesent he just use another one... one that
comes with alot older components e.g. ;) there are plenty.

progress isnt made with old stuff and progress is the only thing i am
personally interested in.

regards,
Rudolf Kastl

>  Dan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  >
>  > >
>  > > Mike
>  > > --
>  > > p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
>  > > This message made from 100% recycled bits.
>  > > You have found the bank of Larn.
>  > > I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
>  > > I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
>  > >
>  > > --
>  > > fedora-list mailing list
>  > > fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  > > To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  > >
>  > y
>  >
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>

[Derek Martin]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 05:17:24PM +0100, Rudolf Kastl wrote:
>  > Please don't top post.
>  
>  i now responded the same way you did... you will see that its not
>  easier to read than a top post. id even say harder. my suggestion is
>  to use a better mail client or submit proper feature requests
>  upstream. 
It's FAR easier.  It's like reading a conversation...  Posting this
way makes it blindingly obvious what points you're responding to, and
makes it much less likely to be confusing or ambiguous.  It also
encourages people to trim the parts of the message they are not
replying to, which is a big waste.

Personally, I think if you're going to top post, you may as well not
quote the original message at all... it serves no purpose.

-- 
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

[Michael A. Peters]

On Friday, October 28, 2005, at 06:18AM, gaurav <gauravp(a)hclcomnet.co.in&gt; wrote:

> Hi List ,
> ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
> I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
> , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
> adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
> schedule and with no strings attached
>
> I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>
> are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
> project like ubuntu ?
>
> pl ppl let me know your views :-) 
Having never used Ubuntu - I can't speak for it.
OK - I did use the live CD when it first came out, to see if it was a good gnome based
alternative to knoppix for a live CD - it wasn't. At least not then.

Why use Fedora?
I like it. 3 year support cycle sounds attractive - but to be honest, Linux software is
moving at a rate the updating every year or so is highly recommended - at least for the
desktop. The new stuff introduced is just worth it, and upgrading is generally pretty
painless (especially if /home is a separate partition).

I've no doubt that Ubuntu is a fine distribution - but Fedora is an excellent
distribution as well.
For 100% community based project - check out Fedora Extras - which is continuing to grow
at a very rapid rate, and absorbing some packages from Core as Core is slimmed down.

[gf durin]

>  Why use Fedora? I like it. 3 year support cycle sounds attractive -
>  but to be honest, Linux software is moving at a rate the updating
>  every year or so is highly recommended - at least for the desktop.
>  The new stuff introduced is just worth it, and upgrading is generally
>  pretty painless (especially if /home is a separate partition).
>   
Hmmm, I take this occasion to tell you my experience. Not sure about 
painless...
Listen, I decided to move from FC3 to FC4 with my PC at home. Nothing 
important there (not yet) so I simply put the 4 CDs, and chose the 
'upgrade' choice.

Everything seemed to be ok. It copied what it needed, made a  reboot, 
but when the system started I had no signs of the FC4 kernel. There were 
some signatures of FC4, but I realized it simply updgraded some rpms, 
but not the system. A mixture of FC3 and FC4, but... with a lot of 
errors, and so on. I had to time to fight with it, so I turned to the 
CDs and meake a fresh Fc4 installation

I feel quite disappointed by this experience. Maybe I did not understand 
the meaning of 'update', but this is not what I expected.

I think that the way to make linux (more) popular is to be robust 
against upgrade. I received a message yesterday of the type 'upgrade: no 
thanks!'

I am sure I still need to discovery something about this stuff, in any 
case I appreciate your suggestions of this matter

Regards

Gianfranco
-- 
Istituto Elettrotecnico Nazionale Galileo Ferraris
Strada delle Cacce, 91 - 10135 Torino Italy
tel: ++39 011 3919839    fax: ++39 011 3919834
Personal home page: http://www.ien.it/~durin/
IEN home pag: http://www.ien.it/
=============================================================
Per favore non mandatemi allegati in Word o PowerPoint, Grazie!
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Please do not send me Word or Powerpoint attachments, thanks!
See: http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
=============================================================

[David-Paul Niner]

gf durin wrote:

> > Why use Fedora? I like it. 3 year support cycle sounds attractive -
> > but to be honest, Linux software is moving at a rate the updating
> > every year or so is highly recommended - at least for the desktop.
> > The new stuff introduced is just worth it, and upgrading is generally
> > pretty painless (especially if /home is a separate partition).
> >
>
>  Hmmm, I take this occasion to tell you my experience. Not sure about 
>  painless...
>  Listen, I decided to move from FC3 to FC4 with my PC at home. Nothing 
>  important there (not yet) so I simply put the 4 CDs, and chose the 
>  'upgrade' choice.
>
>  Everything seemed to be ok. It copied what it needed, made a  reboot, 
>  but when the system started I had no signs of the FC4 kernel. There 
>  were some signatures of FC4, but I realized it simply updgraded some 
>  rpms, but not the system. A mixture of FC3 and FC4, but... with a lot 
>  of errors, and so on. I had to time to fight with it, so I turned to 
>  the CDs and meake a fresh Fc4 installation
>
>  I feel quite disappointed by this experience. Maybe I did not 
>  understand the meaning of 'update', but this is not what I expected.
>
>  I think that the way to make linux (more) popular is to be robust 
>  against upgrade. I received a message yesterday of the type 'upgrade: 
>  no thanks!'
>
>  I am sure I still need to discovery something about this stuff, in any 
>  case I appreciate your suggestions of this matter
>
>  Regards
>
>  Gianfranco 
Sorry to hear that.

As a rule of thumb I always avoid upgrading operating systems.   Having 
had to administer several boxen upgraded from one version of Windows 
server to another, I know first-hand that the possibilities for disaster 
are enormous.    Fortunatly, in the Linux world, upgrading (for me 
anyway), has always been a matter of nfs mounting a remote /home 
directory.   Obviously, the same could be achieved with a local drive 
(and doing thorough backups!).

You may want to give it a try sometime.

Later,
David-Paul Niner



-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

[Michael A. Peters]

On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 12:21 -0400, David-Paul Niner wrote:
>     Fortunatly, in the Linux world, upgrading (for me 
>  anyway), has always been a matter of nfs mounting a remote /home 
>  directory.   Obviously, the same could be achieved with a local drive 
>  (and doing thorough backups!). 
Yes - that's what I do.
Not NFS, though - just a separate /home partition.
I back up my ssl certs etc. - then do a clean install but don't
format /home

[Claus Reheis]

On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 08:01 -0700, Michael Peters wrote:
>   On Friday, October 28, 2005, at 06:18AM, gaurav
> <gauravp(a)hclcomnet.co.in&gt; wrote:
>  
>  >Hi List ,
>  >~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
>  >I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
>  >, 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
>  >adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
>  >schedule and with no strings attached
>  >
>  >I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>  >
>  >are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  >project like ubuntu ?
>  >
>  >pl ppl let me know your views :-) 

Hi!

I LOVE FEDORA because of:

- great hardware-support
- I can do many things at the shell (not like SuSE)
- it forces me to learn something about Linux 
- "look and feel" is very nice
- yum
- nice and helpful community (specially good for newbies like me:)) 


what could be better?

- The updates should be tested more carefully before they are released
to stable!

Claus
 
 

    



	

	
		
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[William Hooper]

Claus Reheis wrote:
[snip]
>  what could be better?
>
>  - The updates should be tested more carefully before they are released
>  to stable! 
Feel free to enable the updates-testing channel and help with that.

-- 
William Hooper

[Claus Reheis]

On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 14:54 -0400, William Hooper wrote:
>  Claus Reheis wrote:
>  [snip]
>  > what could be better?
>  >
>  > - The updates should be tested more carefully before they are released
>  > to stable!
>  
>  Feel free to enable the updates-testing channel and help with that.
>  
>  -- 
>  William Hooper 
But what if I dont know how to fix the problems I encounter?

And please give me a link to a page where is explained how I make a good
bug report! 
I want to learn:)

Claus


	

	
		
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[Adam Fabian]

On 10/28/05, gaurav <gauravp(a)hclcomnet.co.in&gt; wrote:

>  ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
>  I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
>  , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
>  adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
>  schedule and with no strings attached
>
>  I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>
>  are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  project like ubuntu ?
>
>  pl ppl let me know your views :-) 
Fedora packages the important stuff.  Personally, I want the big,
important stuff packaged and packaged well.  I'm not going to compile
KDE.  I can download and compile favorite-utility-program-foo, so I
don't really care if the distribution packages it.

Fedora is lean enough that I can install everything then just remove
the obvious i18n packages.  So, I never have to worry about finding
which stupid development header package I need to install to compile
my programs.  The packages are very up-to-date (perhaps even too much
so, for a general purpose distribution).  Personally, I wouldn't use
Fedora for a server machine, but it's nice on my desktop.  And the
fonts are well done.  I really have better things to do than tweaking
fonts, and even other major Linux distributions are pretty lame in the
font department sometimes.  Hardware support is really good.  That's
my biggest complaint with "more pure" community-based distributions,
the hardware support.  You can get anything working under any modern
Linux that you could under any other, but the ease certainly varies.

Fedora does nice things, like a default FC4 install used LVM. 
Overall, Fedora just does things relatively well out of the box, in
almost every case.  The packages are compiled with -mtune=pentium4. 
Fedora "just works" for me where other distributions turn into a
nightmare, particularly "more pure" community-based distributions. 
There's prelink over there in the daily cron job.  I think I had to
set that sort of thing up manually on Debian.  Small example, general
principle: Fedora tends to save my time and energy.

There's the livna repository, where I can directly install stuff that
requires special debs and compiling under Ubuntu.  Which is a good
example of the good community support.

I've been around the block, used Linux on and off since the mid 90s. 
I've used Slackware, Debian, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Mandrake, SUSE,
Gentoo, Ubuntu, and probably some others I'm forgetting.  Stuff that
was once fun is now merely wearying.  Fedora is one of the easier and
better working distributions in my experience, and my experience is
pretty broad.

Try them all.  Use what you like.

[Mike McCarty]

gaurav wrote:
>  
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  Hi List ,
>  ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora . 
I think you don't understand what Fedora Core is.

>  I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support
> cycle
>  , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
>  adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
>  schedule and with no strings attached 
Ubuntu is a product. Fedora Core is a project. There's a difference.

>  I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ... 
?

>  are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  project like ubuntu ? 
I suggest you go read the website and find out what Fedora actually
is, and why it exists. It is not intended to be a platform which you
can get without paying a fee. Debian, Ubuntu, some versions of SuSe,
CentOS, Scientific Linux, Slackware, etc are. But Fedora definitely
is not.

By using/contributing to Fedora, you build the future of RHEL. If
you aren't interested in that, if you're just a freeloader (like
me) then "you pays your money, and you takes what you gets".

I loaded Fedora onto my machine because I had a contract, and the
company I contracted for asked me to. If I were just going to run
Linux on my machine, and not "fiddle" with it, I'd probably use
either CentOS or Scientific Linux. I don't think Fedora Core
was the right choice for the project I did for the company.

Fedora is worthwhile. It just isn't what you seem to think it is.

YMMV

>  pl ppl let me know your views :-)
>  
>  Regards,
>  Gaurav 
Mike
-- 
p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!

[Robin Laing]

gaurav wrote:
>  
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>  
>  Hi List ,
>  ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
>  I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
>  , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
>  adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
>  schedule and with no strings attached
>  
>  I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>  
>  are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  project like ubuntu ?
>  
>  pl ppl let me know your views :-)
>  
>  Regards,
>  Gaurav
>  
>  - --
>  "Innovation is not absolutely necessary, but then neither is survival."
>  - -- Andrew Papageorge
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
> >  
> >  iD8DBQFDYhpZVAO9KHA2KWcRAl/5AJwNrTdyi4irdE+qpB+XG5XPcVwKsgCeJa6Z
> >  VKFSunK1Sq8cC3W1b4Ss9Ro=
> >  =q54V
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>  
>   
Why do I use Fedora.

It is the main OS outside of Windows that is used around work.  I have 
so few issues with Fedora.  There is allot of support info available. 
  I started with Slackware and tried others.  I almost went to Gentoo 
but didn't like the idea of compiling all the applications.

I would like Fedora to support multimedia better at the outset but 
that won't happen as long as lawyers can make a fortune on 
questionable IP laws.

After some problems, Fedora is getting back on track again.

Some people make the mistake of upgrading and then complain about 
headaches and problems.  Fedora should be installed cleanly.  I went 
through the upgrade mistake once and I won't do it again.


-- 
Robin Laing

[Maung Nanda Linn Aung]

Hi Gaurav,

Well, i think there's not much connection between fedora and ubuntu.

since ubuntu is Debian based and FC is redhat based, i think it's
quite different. at least for me. I kinda like shipit.ubuntulinux.org
facility with community based.. but fedora filled many gaps that we
have been waiting for... this list, extras, security, etc etc...
Honestly, i run fedora core 4 with laptop as well, it seems, linux run
pretty well on laptops since most laptops share common things compared
to workstations or servers, everything goes fine and never had a
problem once, all i ask here is config part..

Definitely, we are not wasting time on FCs... this list is amazing
list.. honestly, since i am a student and learning all sort of
things... i think fedora core is the prettiest one in Redhat based
(free ones)...since i have an opportunity to try many distros at
school...(MS_VirtualPC with 16GB provided for students at school).

Here is my choices of distro.. it's just my point of view.. (i am
little biased with packages and its management)

1.Fedora core 4
2.Gentoo 2005.1
3.Ubuntu 5.04
4.Slackware 10.1
5.FreeBSD 6.0

My answer is, No, i will not move to Ubuntu, i will keep in touch with
Ubuntu like other distros i am interested, but Fedora is my choice...
:)


cheers.


On 10/28/05, gaurav <gauravp(a)hclcomnet.co.in&gt; wrote:
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Hi List ,
>  ~             Sometimes I think I am wasting  my time on fedora .
>  I got ubuntu on onmy laptop works flawlessly with 3 year support cycle
>  , 16,000 pakages (mutiunivese repo) and of course apt , sysnaptic ,
>  adept and  rock solid :-) plus cutting pakages and six month release
>  schedule and with no strings attached
>
>  I some times feel fedora is like lab rat for RH ...
>
>  are we wasting time On fedora ?? Should we move 100% comunity based
>  project like ubuntu ?
>
>  pl ppl let me know your views :-)
>
>  Regards,
>  Gaurav
>
>  - --
>  "Innovation is not absolutely necessary, but then neither is survival."
>  - -- Andrew Papageorge
> >  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >  Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
> >
> >  iD8DBQFDYhpZVAO9KHA2KWcRAl/5AJwNrTdyi4irdE+qpB+XG5XPcVwKsgCeJa6Z
> >  VKFSunK1Sq8cC3W1b4Ss9Ro=
> >  =q54V
> >  -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>
>
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