management of this list

[John Summerfield]

there are some things I don't like about the way this list is implemented, the 
key one being that it's set to default to sending replies off-list.

My preferred email clients (Thunderbird and Seamonkey) do not have any means 
of sending replies only to the list, so I find myself sometimes sending 
replies I intend for the list, off-list.

Worse, I miss replies to some of my queries; I've seen replies in the archives 
that haven't made it to me.

I have visited https://www.redhat.com/mailman/options/fedora-xen and 
turned "Avoid duplicate copies of messages" off, but still miss replies.

The whole issue would be solved, both for incoming and outgoing email, if the 
default list behaviour was changed to send replies to the list; this is 
appropriate for a discussion such as this.

Please, Could this be done?

[Daniel P. Berrange]

On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 08:36:41AM +0900, John Summerfield wrote:
> there are some things I don't like about the way this list is implemented, the 
> key one being that it's set to default to sending replies off-list.
>
> My preferred email clients (Thunderbird and Seamonkey) do not have any means 
> of sending replies only to the list, so I find myself sometimes sending 
> replies I intend for the list, off-list.
>
> Worse, I miss replies to some of my queries; I've seen replies in the archives 
> that haven't made it to me.
>
> I have visited https://www.redhat.com/mailman/options/fedora-xen and 
> turned "Avoid duplicate copies of messages" off, but still miss replies.
>
> The whole issue would be solved, both for incoming and outgoing email, if the 
> default list behaviour was changed to send replies to the list; this is 
> appropriate for a discussion such as this.

I'm not going to get into this discussion again, other than to refer
you to the previous thread

http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-xen/2007-May/msg00021.html

To quote Markus

"This just replaces one set of problems with a different set of
  arguably worse problems, shifting the annoyance from one set of people
  (which includes John) to another set (which includes me)."

So no, it won't be changing.

Dan.

[John Summerfield]

Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> I'm not going to get into this discussion again, other than to refer
> you to the previous thread
>
> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-xen/2007-May/msg00021.html

That's one reply I did not see. I have seen the article it links to, and 
I don't agree with some of its basic assumptions.
> To quote Markus
>
> "This just replaces one set of problems with a different set of
>   arguably worse problems, shifting the annoyance from one set of people
>   (which includes John) to another set (which includes me)."
>
> So no, it won't be changing.

If all email clients shipped by RH and Fedora were "reasonable mailers" 
as assumed by Chip, I really wouldn't care so much.

I could almost cope if the version of mailman Red Hat's using would 
gaily send me so-called duplicates, but it won't. I've checked my 
configuration.

Whatever _I_ do, I miss replies others make. If you, Dan, choose "group 
reply" or "reply to all,"[1] I often don't get it. I've never seen value 
in off-list replies, except for very rare cases where, maybe 
highlighting someone's ignorance might embarrass them, but they need to 
be put straight.

I for one would be happy if my email address never went to email lists; 
the fact it does is the reason I need to apply antispam to this domain.

[1] I don't see the point of those wrt _this_ list. Mutt users might try 
L to reply to the list.

[Markus Armbruster]

John Summerfield  writes:
> Daniel P. Berrange wrote:
> > I'm not going to get into this discussion again, other than to refer
> > you to the previous thread
> >
> > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-xen/2007-May/msg00021.html
>
> That's one reply I did not see. I have seen the article it links to,
> and I don't agree with some of its basic assumptions.

This tired topic has been discussed to death many times over on many
lists, including this one.  I wouldn't expect agreement to jump at us
out of the bushes now.
> > To quote Markus
> >
> > "This just replaces one set of problems with a different set of
> >   arguably worse problems, shifting the annoyance from one set of people
> >   (which includes John) to another set (which includes me)."
> >
> > So no, it won't be changing.
>
> If all email clients shipped by RH and Fedora were "reasonable
> mailers" as assumed by Chip, I really wouldn't care so much.
>
> I could almost cope if the version of mailman Red Hat's using would
> gaily send me so-called duplicates, but it won't. I've checked my
> configuration.
>
> Whatever _I_ do, I miss replies others make. If you, Dan, choose
> "group reply" or "reply to all,"[1] I often don't get it. I've never
> seen value in off-list replies, except for very rare cases where,
> maybe highlighting someone's ignorance might embarrass them, but they
> need to be put straight.

I don't understand how you miss replies *often*.  Can you identify the
conditions that make you miss a reply?  If you can, we might be able
to help you fix that.
> I for one would be happy if my email address never went to email
> lists; the fact it does is the reason I need to apply antispam to this
> domain.

Tough.
> [1] I don't see the point of those wrt _this_ list. Mutt users might
> try L to reply to the list.

[...]
> You cannot reply off-list:-)

I consider that bad manners.  Discussion of manners, however, is quite
off-topic on this list.  Feel free to reply to me personally.

[Evan Lavelle]

This eventually comes up on most of the mailing lists I'm on (lots of 
them). I was as surprised as you were on finding out that some lists 
were set to reply to sender. Some people like it that way; your only 
choice is to live with it. Always 'reply all', edit the fields, delete 
duplicates, find something else to worry about. I'm not aware that I've 
ever missed a duplicate, though; I don't understand that issue.

John Summerfield wrote:
> I for one would be happy if my email address never went to email lists; 
> the fact it does is the reason I need to apply antispam to this domain.

All the spam I've got over the last few years (a lot) has come from 
address harvesting of mailman lists. There's only one answer, which is 
never to use an important mail address on a mailing list. I use a free 
(exim plussed) address. You get a base name, and can put whatever you 
want on the end of it, with a '+' in between. You create a new address 
for each list, and throw away the address if you get spam on it. The 
only hassle is that Thunderbird makes it difficult to edit the sender 
address in an outgoing mail, so you need to set up a new identity for 
each list. Thunderbird also has problems selecting the correct identity 
when replying to a list message, so you frequently have to manually 
select the correct 'from' address from all your identities.

- Evan

[John Summerfield]

Evan Lavelle wrote:
> This eventually comes up on most of the mailing lists I'm on (lots of 
> them). I was as surprised as you were on finding out that some lists 
> were set to reply to sender. Some people like it that way; your only 
> choice is to live with it. Always 'reply all', edit the fields, delete 
> duplicates, find something else to worry about. I'm not aware that I've 
> ever missed a duplicate, though; I don't understand that issue.

Since I tend not to get the help I need, I think I won't be around much 
longer.
> John Summerfield wrote:
> > I for one would be happy if my email address never went to email 
> > lists; the fact it does is the reason I need to apply antispam to this 
> > domain.
>
> All the spam I've got over the last few years (a lot) has come from 
> address harvesting of mailman lists. There's only one answer, which is 
> never to use an important mail address on a mailing list. I use a free 
> (exim plussed) address. You get a base name, and can put whatever you 
> want on the end of it, with a '+' in between. You create a new address 
> for each list, and throw away the address if you get spam on it. The 
> only hassle is that Thunderbird makes it difficult to edit the sender 
> address in an outgoing mail, so you need to set up a new identity for 
> each list. Thunderbird also has problems selecting the correct identity 
> when replying to a list message, so you frequently have to manually 
> select the correct 'from' address from all your identities.

I have a free domain; traffic from a few servers[1] world wide goes 
directly to an internal server that handles it.

I've gone from getting lots of spam to getting none, for that domain. 
I'm not about to undo that antispam measure. It beats block lists, 
header checking and so on hands down.

[1] It does mean that email from those servers can't reach my regular server

[Dustin Henning]

John,
    Hopefully I'm not stepping on any toes here seeing as how you have already received a management reply and apparently there was a previous discussion, but I have a couple of thoughts.  First: seeing as how your reply to can't have mail delivered to it from the outside world, I must ask if it is used for anything other than this list.  If it isn't, you could change your reply to header to [e-mail] and then whether someone replied to you or to all, it would only go to the group and you should get a copy.  Second: as for you missing some copies, said change, if an option, might resolve that as well.  I don't think I ever get duplicates either, and mine is set to receive duplicates as well, so that could be a bug of some sort in the list software.  Finally: regarding missing functionality in your mailer, I think all mailers have a reply to author and reply to all (albeit possibly with different names or hidden within options), but reply to all obviously includes the author, which you don't want to do.  In this scenario, I always reply to all and then delete the author from the to field, which is easier than replying and then replacing the author in the to field with [e-mail].  However, I am not familiar with your clients, so I can't be certain such manipulation is possible, nor can I tell you how to do it, but it would blow me away if it were in fact impossible (though admittedly it could be cumbersome or annoying).
    Dustin

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of John Summerfield
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 18:37
To: [e-mail]
Subject: [Fedora-xen] management of this list

there are some things I don't like about the way this list is implemented, the 
key one being that it's set to default to sending replies off-list.

My preferred email clients (Thunderbird and Seamonkey) do not have any means 
of sending replies only to the list, so I find myself sometimes sending 
replies I intend for the list, off-list.

Worse, I miss replies to some of my queries; I've seen replies in the archives 
that haven't made it to me.

I have visited https://www.redhat.com/mailman/options/fedora-xen and 
turned "Avoid duplicate copies of messages" off, but still miss replies.

The whole issue would be solved, both for incoming and outgoing email, if the 
default list behaviour was changed to send replies to the list; this is 
appropriate for a discussion such as this.

Please, Could this be done?

[John Summerfield]

Dustin Henning wrote:
> John,
>    Hopefully I'm not stepping on any toes here seeing as how you have already received a management reply and apparently there was a previous discussion, but I have a couple of thoughts.  First: seeing as how your reply to can't have mail delivered to it from the outside world, I must ask if it is used for anything other than this list.  If it isn't, you could change your reply to header to [e-mail] and then whether someone replied to you or to all, it would only go to the group and you should get a copy.  Second: as for you missing some copies, said change, if an option, might resolve that as well.  I don't think I ever get duplicates either, and mine is set to receive duplicates as well, so that could be a bug of some sort in the list software.  Finally: regarding missing functionality in your mailer, I think all mailers have a reply to author and reply to all (albeit possibly with different names or hidden within options), but reply to all obviously includes t

he
> author, which you don't want to do.  In this scenario, I always reply to all and then delete the author from the to field, which is easier than replying and then replacing the author in the to field with [e-mail].  However, I am not familiar with your clients, so I can't be certain such manipulation is possible, nor can I tell you how to do it, but it would blow me away if it were in fact impossible (though admittedly it could be cumbersome or annoying).

I use this email address for several lists.

I do use reply-to-all then edit, but it's tedious and error-prone.